Echis ocellatus

This section is a bit quiet, so I thought I'd chip in as well...

I acquired a trio of E. ocellatus from Mr. Weinsheimer, and they are simply wonderful snakes. Last year both females laid eggs and 60+ babies hatched, that was really amazing experience for me - my very first Echis breeding. Awesome... Very Happy

I owe my success to the great advise I got from Mr. Weinsheimer, he kindly provided information that has greatly helped me in getting started and keeping this species without problems.

Here are some random shots, hope you enjoy Very Happy

Beautiful. I love those saw scaled vipers ... beautiful but difficult photgraphing subjects too with their huge eyes and nervous behaviour.

One question ... what does one with 60 juvenile echis?

Thank you. I love these too, even more so after keeping them.
Fortunately these guys are more curious than nervous. Same goes with the only other species I keep, E. p. leakeyi.

I can be wrong about this, but I think that if they don't have too small an enclosure, they seem more laid back. I've kept the ocellatus male separate from the females at times to give them some peace, and at those times the male was in much smaller enclosure and seemed much more nervous every time I cleaned up etc.

To answer your question; feel overwhelmed? Laughing

Hey Christian,

thanks for these kind words! As I said to you it makes me happy when I see someone has really fun with animals he/she got from me, and I have no problem to give any information I collected about my animals to any person.
So, two days ago one of my female Echis ocellatus gave 36 good eggs + 2 bad eggs to me. I´m not sure if my other female is pregnant as well, but if not, I´m not sad about it, as I have bred nearly 300 Echis ocellatus over the last four years. The biggest clutch of one female has been 55 eggs last year! It´s incredible how all these eggs match into such a small snakes (approximately 60-65cm, very big for this species). The hatching rate over the years was between 90-100%, the eggs are really easy to incubate.
Sadly it´s not as easy to get the hatchings to start feeding by themselve. From my experince none of them start to feed by themselve at the beginning, so I have to forcefeed all of them for 3-4 month until the first few start to feed smallest pinkies.
Sometimes the last ones start to feed not until one year after hatching, that can be really stressfull. But when they feed, they are one of the nicest and easiest vipers to keep in my opinion. Everyone interested in Echis and "dwarf Bitis" should love this specie.

One shot of the female which gave the clutch two days ago to me. This shot is from last year.

Echis ocellatus Echisb10

Best wishes

Frank

I agree with Frank - Echis are absolutely wonderful snakes in captivity, once they start feeding. I have a very hard time understanding why they aren't more popular (and so cheap compared to dwarf Bitis....)

Cheers,

WW

Isn't a possible bite from Echis a really bad thing?
Compared to most elapids with neurotoxic venoms the echis-bites often result in non reversible damages of tissue as far as I know, right?
And the venom is rather strong IMHO.
Maybe these are the reasons?

Hi Guenter,

I think Wolfgang can tell you much more about the venom than I can, but let me tell you an example about the unpopularity of Echis sp.
Some time ago I had a table at an expo to sell some snakes, Echis ocellatus hatchings as well. A guy came, he was interested in the Echis and we talked a little bit about them. I asked him if he wants to try with them, explained everything about raising them up, and so on.
He told me they would be too venomous for him (I ask myself how it´s possible to get bitten by a snake of a maximum size of 65 cm, if you keep a little distance?). I asked him about his venomous collection and he told me "some cobras, mambas, taipans, gaboon adders,..." WHAT???? How could a small Echis be as potential dangerous as an adult mamba??? If the Echis freaks out (mine never did, but wild cought ones are maybe different), you can step a little back and thats it. Try the same with a nervous, wildcaught mamba. Good luck.
I think Echis are by far not as bad as their reputation. Even not the venom action.
But that part Wolfgang can better explain.

Best regards

Frank

I see - so the possibility to more easily avoid being biten outweighs this. Maybe my approach was influenced by the fact that my first encounter with an echis (photographically) was exciting. The snake was extremly nervous and always moving towards the glass between us. She definitely would have biten if she had the possibility.

Anyway: my best snakeshot ever is from a this e. carinatus ... IF You get them in focus, the huge eyes are piercing and photographs very interesting.

Frank Weinsheimer wrote:: He told me they would be too venomous for him (I ask myself how it´s possible to get bitten by a snake of a maximum size of 65 cm, if you keep a little distance?). I asked him about his venomous collection and he told me "some cobras, mambas, taipans, gaboon adders,..." WHAT???? How could a small Echis be as potential dangerous as an adult mamba??? If the Echis freaks out (mine never did, but wild cought ones are maybe different), you can step a little back and thats it. Try the same with a nervous, wildcaught mamba. Good luck.

And that's where Frank hits the nail on the head: yes, they are highly venomous, BUT there is simply no need to get bitten by a small viper if you are careful (force-feeding a juvenile would be the one procedure that is not risk-free). Presumably all venomous keepers work with the intention of not getting bitten, so I tend to feel that people are too obsessive about the potential danger of a bite, and often forget about the likelihood of a bite and what can be done to reduce that further.

In terms of temper, many Echis specimens (CB or freshly caught) are very calm, others do freak out and strike at everything. As an aside, I consider "snappiness" a good thing. Which snake are you more likely to get careless with: the one that strikes wildly in all directions as soon as you open the cage, or the one that lies there like a salami, doing nothing?

As to the venom: yes, Echis are highly lethal, and untreated bites have a high fatality rate. However, the venom is fairly slow-acting, and if a good antivenom is available, fatality rates are very low indeed. The important point is to make sure you know what species you are keeping (and there are many misidentified Echis in the hobby - I have seen a number of E. carinatus sochureki misidentified as E. pyramidum, which would certainly cause major problems) and where and what the nearest appropriate antivenom is. Local tissue damage after Echis bites is generally not too bad, much less so than after many other commonly kept vipers, pitvipers or indeed many cobras.

But then again, there is no reason to get bitten, is there?

Cheers,

WW

Yes, simply a question of risk management ... risk is the product of the likeliness of an incident and the damage it would do. So if the likeliness can be reduced a lot, the risk gets low too. Again I learned something here ;-)

One question to the identification. IMHO the Echis are under some discussion in taxonomy, is that correct?
To be honest: for me, a identification of an Echis species is nearly impossible, they all look so similar to me as with no other snake genus ...

working with venomous snakes, with dangerous animals even with horses is only advisable if you know what you are doing.

risk management - well i call it proper handling skills are an must...

all of us certainly hope we never need our emergency protocols and snake bite management... well, there is not such a thing than more or less dangerous venomous snakes in the hobby. every single one can be harmful and every single one has the potential to do lots of damages. therefore it is so crucial to learn and learn. an old saying says, only the idiots get bitten! it simply means we can not blame the animal for a bite. it is our fault if something like a this occur.

I have no idea how rare or frequent bites among snake lovers happen ... but I think, if You handle snakes day by day - many snakes, as You guys seem to do - someday a lack of concentration must lead to an incident. Would be interesting to get numbers but I am sure, no one would like to talk too much about that. I wouldn't, too.

No problem Frank, it has been such a pleasure dealing & corresponding with you.
Indeed, ocellatus are one of my favorites, I really enjoy keeping them.
You have produced quite the insane amount of ocellatus babies... Shocked

I am also under the impression that part of the reason why Echis aren't more popular is due to them being highly venomous. But as was mentioned, they are small and it is rather easy to stay out of their way.
Admittedly I am not very experienced, and have only kept two species for a relatively short time, but as Frank mentioned, I find it surprising that someone keeping cobras etc. would shy away from Echis on account of them being so venomous... scratch

Update:

Ok, the other female was pregnant as well. Two days ago she laid a clutch of 45 good eggs. As there is no more space in my incubator I will try to incubate them freely (of course in a plastic box) in my snakeroom until there is new space in the incubator. At the moment the temperture is perfect, for them.
For anyone who is interested: I weighed the clutch and the female.
Clutch: 122g
Snake: 135g

Best regards

Frank

I have just read this topic and im amazed to hear of these clutch sizes, it is quite incredible.
What is the incubation period?

Frank I look forward to seeing pics of baby Echis soon for you.

Hello Rob,

four days ago the first clutch hatched. From 36 eggs (I counted the shells again and again) I got 38 hatchlings! That means a hatching rate of more than 100% Very Happy

It´s curious, but nearly in every second Echis ocellatus-clutch I have twins. Don´t know why it happens so often in this species or maybe only in my specimen.
I try to take some pictures of them in the next days, but they look absolutely the same as the hatchlings of Christian above.
The other clutch should hatch in the next few days as well.

Best regards

Frank

I forgot, the incubation period took 48-49 days at 28-29°C. This time I kept the females during their pregnancy at 24-27 °C, normally a couple of °C higher. It will be very interesting to take a look at the sex-ratio (see the topic "Temperature Sex Ditermination in Naja" from Randy, there we talked about that as well), normally I got 2:1-ratio for the males, so it will be very interestingto see if it is different this time.

Ok, I took a first sight on the sex-ratio and I´m blown away: More than 50% are females! That´s totally surprising to me, as in all the former clutches (I have to take a look, but it should be about 12 from 2-5 different females with approximately 300 hatchlings) I got much more males than females. I am waiting on the second clutch which should hatch in the next 7 days, and if the sex-ratio is the same than this time, I will definetely make some experiments on that under laboratory conditions for the next years. This question is really fiscinating.
Best greets to Randy who sets the ball rolling, thanks!

Best whishes

Frank

Thanks for calling my attention to this thread Frank. I kept 1.2 E. carinatus sochureki about 7 years ago. I got them from a friend getting out of snakes. I wasn't breeding back then, so....

I'm always amazed at how many eggs some species lay, especially the smaller species like Echis.

Definitely interested in hearing what the final sex ratio is compared to previous breedings. Especially when the exact same male and female are bred, year after year.

I have some TSD info from breedings this year, that I will post on that topic.

Just my two cents about difficulties to get babies feeding. I got my E.c. sochureki pair as babies, the female was already feeding (she would probably eat fingers too), but the male stubbornly refused from everything- live pinkie, dead pinkie, pinkie with blood, pinkie with brain, lizard-scented pinkie, lizard.....I was already really worried (and was really not happy about future forcefeeding). Then I offered cricket- bang! And so the male ate crickets and then locusts until he was ready to take fuzzies.
As I have experience only with those 2 specimens, I cant of course say that all the other Echis-babies are cricket-eaters too.

Interesting to read that crickets did the trick. I have recently got 3 babies from a friend.

They have just sheed for the first time and i'm about to try to feed them for the first time. Forcefeeding isn't the first thing i want to try with these (small as hell).
Pinkies is just way too big for them so reading about crickets is interesting. This also makes me wonder if they would eat other insects like small roaches.

I will try some different things and post what i have observed and so on.

Best Regards
Daniel

Echis carinatus and E. leucogaster could start easily with crickets, but it seems that E. ocellatus is quick different.

E. c. sochureki bite immediately the cricket. E. ocellatus often refuse to feed with the same way.

Nevertheless, in wild, babies feed on termites and centipedes (Chevalier in Chippaux, 2006).

Rémi

Rémi Ksas wrote:: Echis carinatus and E. leucogaster could start easily with crickets, but it seems that E. ocellatus is quick different.

E. c. sochureki bite immediately the cricket. E. ocellatus often refuse to feed with the same way.

Nevertheless, in wild, babies feed on termites and centipedes (Chevalier in Chippaux, 2006).

Rémi

Interesting, i have put som S.tartara in with them over night. I will check tomorrow how things have gone.

Regards
Daniel

Guest

Echis really beautiful but very delicate and sensitive species to keep. I've kept russian and pakistan local sawblades as I call them. Christian you have a beautiful group man! Keep up the excellent work.

Thanks a lot Timothy!

Honestly, I feel undeserving of your kind words... I doubt that I'd have these amazing, beautiful snakes and the breeding success, if it were not for mr. Weinsheimer.
He had faith in me and kept the adult trio reserved for me despite some mis-communication and a botched pick-up at Hamm.
He generously dispensed information and got me going with these gems Smile

As far as Echis are concerned, I only keep E. ocellatus and E. p. leakeyi at the moment.
I love their unaggressive disposition and inquisitive nature.
Only thing that stresses me is to get the ocellatus babies going - they sure are a lot of work...

Speaking of which, I recently go ~50 eggs from the other female. I didn't go for 100% hatch-rate, due to the workload they present, and the fact that it's not easy to sell these.
This week 23 have hatched, and several more eggs look like they might...
Thank God I already have a home for some of these Laughing

The discoloration on some of the eggs is due to the fact that the hideout in the adults' terrarium has moist soil in it. This is where the females lay their eggs.
Echis ocellatus P1040641

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