Bothriopsis or Bothriechis ID

Photo was taken by Carlos Zorrilla in Ecuadorian Cloud Forest

it's a typical Bothriechis schlegelii from in that area of Ecuador perhaps later on some one can conduct a rather simple study to see if it's sympartic { same as } Bothriechis superciliaris.

Very nice indeed !

Hi Jacob ;

What splendor, thank you for this photo.
It makes me want to have another

Best...

Quote :

sympartic { same as } Bothriechis superciliaris.

Sympatric does not mean "the same" - but living (and being evolved) in the same geographic area.

Very nice Peter , you are correct i was trying to keep it a short commentary perhaps the actual statement should have been { allopatric speciation} in my opinion, that may be similar to Bothriechis supercilliaris.

So few South American schlegelii/supracilaris are seen in captive collections- this specimen is very beautiful. Its hard to tell by the pic, but it doesn't seem to have very pronounced superciliaries, a highly variable feature none-the-less.

Thanks for sharing the photo Jacob!

Michael

Micheal, you are correct very few specimens , do i believe this is a form of Bothriechis superciliaris ? no only in the sense of {allopatric speciation} .

i believe it will scale out to be a unique member of the Bothriechis schlegelli family.

Obs. This is a very rare snake in captivity i dont believe that there are any held outside of Ecuador , in addtion to Professor Burgers observation from this photo, mine are scalation , a shorter snout, color , pattern and location encountered {cloud forest } .

Hey Albert,

I assume you are not a biologist, as "allopatric speciation" is also not the right term. Allopatric speciation occurs, when a original population is devided in two or more subpopulations by geographical bounderies, like mountains, rivers, etc. If these subpopulations do not have any geneflow between each other with enough time a new species might result out of each subpopulation as they might face different environmental conditions. Sympatric speciation means, that a subgroup of a population might build their own geneflow within a original population without geographical bounderies between them (for example by changed mating behaviour, changed activity times, etc. by one of these groups). If Bothriechis superciliaris and Bothriechis schlegelii evolute out of their common ancestor by allopatric or sympatric speciation I can only guess, as I don´t know the geographical or behavioural bounderies in nature. And if Bothriechis schlegelii from Ecuador is the same or not as Bothriechis schlegelii/Bothriechis superciliaris from Costa Rica only genetic investigations can show. It would be interesting to see specimen from countries between Costa Rica and Ecuador to see if it is only a smooth transition in morphology or a sudden change.

Please be so kind not to use a technical term if you don´t know exactly what it means. It makes other people very difficult to understand you.

Best regards

Frank

Frank , thank you for your opinion , Peter Zurcher, do you have an opinion in relation specifically to at least the visual difference in Bothriechis schlegelii from Central America and South America.

Obs. true without DNA it's a crap shoot at best as in the case of allopatric speciation perhaps you can read it's definition once more as there are five types of sympatricies, i feel because of the different South and Central American Cordilleras parting these two countries it may qualify for isolation enough to form an allopatric speciation situation .

Examples in other species that qualified with much less isolation are Bothriechis supercilliaris , Lachesis melancephlala and Lachesis acrochorda all from a Central American ancestory proven out by DNA.

in fact it's difficult to explain and im given to mental inertia as to trying to translate in to something youll be able to understand in my best layman language.

Perhaps W. Wuster , can shed some light on this specimen as this Ecuadorian Bothriechis schlegelii is even more divergent than Bothriechis supraciliaris .

Abstract: Recently, the systematics of the genera Bothrops and Bothriechis has been the subject of diverse morphological and biochemical studies (Campbell & Lamar 1989, 1992, Shätti et al. 1990, & Kramer
1991, Cadle 1992, Crother et al. 1992, Werman 1992, Kuch and Freire 1995, Wüster and McCarthy
1996). Taylor’s (1954) keen observation of a single specimen (Type, KU. 31997) was notable and gross
differences shown by the material at hand were correct, although the main parameters used for his
description were not, as he based the distinction on the aspect and morphology of some scales that often
are ontogenetically variable within the species, such as the divided supraoculars and the color of the tail
tip.

Once again thanks Frank, for your participation,

AJM.

My superficial observation is that the head looks more to me like Bothriechis nigroviridis. As Albert pointed out, the shorter snout and scalation remind me more of nigroviridis, than schlegeli, but again its hard to tell much from a picture.

Matt , thats a great observation and may very well be a Bothriechis nigroviridis except i dont remember if they disperse that far N.? in to Ecuador , Matt this one was found in a unique "Hot Spot " microclimate Cloud Forest, situation and that's what had me stumped about diagnosing it as a Bothriechis schlgeleii as they are deizens of lowland jungle and foot hills in Central and South america, Cloud Forest , you find Bothriechis nigroviridis , if it's a Bothriechis schlegelii , it's a unique member of the family . i posted under the {Scientific Papers section } on June 7, 2012 of Venomland's forum my findings on The Phylogeny of South American Pitvipers, than below is another.

Matt, thanks for your worth while participation .


Bayesian mixed models and the phylogeny of pitvipers
(Viperidae: Serpentes)
Todd A. Castoe, Christopher L. Parkinson¤
Department of Biology, University of Central Florida, 4000 Central Florida Blvd., Orlando, FL 32816-2368, USA
Received 6 June 2005; revised 2 December 2005; accepted 26 December 2005
Abstract

It seems very likely that Bothriechis schlegelii is a species complex. We published a comparison of mtDNA sequence divergence between Ecuadorian and Costa Rican Bothriechis schlegelli some years back http://www.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/Publications/Biology_of_the_Vipers.pdf.

For sh*ts and giggles I quickly downloaded and analysed (NJ Tree) mitochondrial ND4 sequences (mostly from Genbank) for Costa Rica and Ecuadorian B. schegelii, B. supraciliaris and a couple of other Bothriechis, and this is what I got:



This is what the Ecuadorian animal looked like:




There are a large number of images of B. schlegelii and other Bothriechis on Calphotos

Albert,

I would have assumed that the snake was a schlegeli, but the morphological similarity of the head makes me wonder if the schlegeli that exist in higher cloud forests, perhaps adapt to their environment in the same manner as a B. nigroviridis adapts...hence causing them to appear to have similarly shaped heads??

Without looking at the body of the snake and just looking at the head, my first inclination was that the snake looks just like 'nigroviridis'. Given that it is from Ecuador, DNA (as WW pointed out) shows it is more closely related to Costa Rican schlegeli, but that doesn't mean that morphologically it couldn't adapt to the higher elevation cloud forest.

What do you think? I'm not sure what specific pressures of the higher altitude cloud forest would make it adapt in that manner, aside from the black scales on the head, would tend to absorb more sunlight at higher altitude and/or perhaps act as a filter against UV radiation (again seen in nigroviridis).

Any thoughts?

MH

Matt, today i cant even reason in those terms, those details ill leave to you specialist most likely you are correct but after DNA , every thing else is speculation and behavioral science , all i can do and badly at that ! is identify a snake.

The first time i observed an preserved Bothrops albocarinata (sensu lato) i thought it was also a Bothrops nigroviridis .

There appears to be two distinct types of Bothriechis schlegelii as you pointed out a highland variety and a lowland variety , Jacob's representing the highland version and Wuster's the other.

Here you want the million dollar question for all !. ?Which specie is the common ancestor of the Bothriechis complex .

Obs. a) W.Wuster's body of work covers every angle quite exhaustivly but the fly in the ointment will be, the Bothriechis schlegelii of Colombia South America , an independent study from material sent to Gentech shows this specimen more diverse than the other ones but Dr. Wuster blanket covered that angle too by predicting Bothriechis schelgelii is most likely a species complex and the implication are enormous.

Obs. b) key word a {species complex }.

In Colombia, this snake has a greater elevational distribution than elsewhere (0-2,650m), snakes from high elevation are darker than snakes from the lowlands and have greenish blotches that are close together (Daniel,1949).

Bothriechis schlegelii , has been reported from Venezuela as well as Peru.

In Venezuela , Sander-Montilla (1965) in the region of state of Amazonas in the region of Cerro Yumari and asscociated highlands.

In Peru, This species occurs in the Tumbes region , as an isolated population (Campbell and
Lamar 1992; ).

Obs: Highest reported elevation for Bothriechis schlegelii the highlands of Colombia.

Biogeography and Diversification in The Neotropics: Testing Macro Evolutionary Hypothesis Using Molecular Phylo Genetic Data, Juan M. Daza , Colombia, South America, test source mentioned, GenBank.
ABSTRACT

Anineage diversification in the Neotropics is an interesting topic in evolutionary biology and one of
the least understood. The complexity of the region precludes generalizations regarding the historical
and evolutionary processes responsible for the observed high diversity. Here, I use molecular data to
infer evolutionary relationships and test hypotheses of current taxonomy, species boundaries,
speciation and biogeographic history in several lineages of Neotropical snakes. I comprehensively
sampled a widely distributed Neotropical colubrid snake and Middle American pitvipers and
combined my data with published sequences. Within the colubrid genus Leptodeira, mitochondrial
and nuclear markers revealed a phylogeograhic structure that disagrees with the taxonomy based
only on morphology. Instead, the phylogenetic structure corresponds to specific biogeographic
regions within the Neotropics. Molecular evidence combined with explicit divergence time estimates
reject the hypothesis that highland pitvipers in Middle America originated during the climatic
changes during the Pleistocene. My data, instead, shows that pitviper diversification occurred mainly
during the Miocene, a period of active orogenic activity. Using multiple lineages of Neotropical
snakes in a single phylogenetic tree, I describe how the closure of the Isthmus of Panama generated
several episodes of diversification as opposed to the Motagua-Polochic fault in Guatemala where a
single vicariant event may have led to diversification of snakes with different ecological
requirements. This finding has implications for future biogeographic studies in the region as explicit
temporal information can be readily incorporated in molecular clock analyses. Bridging the gap
between the traditional goals of historical biogeography (i.e., area relationships) with robust
statistical methods, my research can be applied to multiple levels of the biological hierarchy (i.e.,
above species level), other regional systems and other sub-disciplines in biology such as medical
research, evolutionary ecology, taxonomy and conservation.