Starter hot

Hello Bob,

you´re absolutely right.
I would add another point.
The snake should not be a greedy feeder and prefer to eat after being left alone.
Many bites occur because people feed their snakes in the same way every time and the snakes learn to take food directly from the forceps. Any wrong movement with a finger / hand can trigger a bite. And especially in calm ("tame") specimens possible biting-distance is often underestimated.

Rainer

"I would decide because of the behaviour of the snake. In my mind a relatively calm rattler like Cr. horridus atricaudatus that can kill you 10 times or more is better then a stupid acting trimi that jumps from the tree in you direction to get you.
I have handled a lot and I would decide this way - because the best way is not to get bitten by a snake."

Agree!

All hots are able to kill you (For some sp. you could imagine yourself to be the famous first one).
Allergic reaction could be a fast way to move on to "next level".

In my opinion RESPECT is the key word.
Trying to add that with a general calm behavior I would for sure prefere the 10 times more deadly one.

Sorry for a bit poor english.

I heard that Bitis gabonica rhinoceros is one of the calmest hots but I guess she is more difficult to keep.

Yes, unless you make the fatal mistake to go below its operating distance - striking can be very fast and unexpected for keepers with poor experience or those who trust in its calmness.

Peter is absolutely right.
The problem is that the "operating distance"of many snakes, especially the big bitis, is often underestimated even by experienced keepers. They seem very calm but they can explode. If you are in striking-distance when they start, you have no chance to get your hand,... out of their reach.

very true , especially big bitis like gabon or arietans seem big slow and slugish but will explode in your face in no time , my arietans female is the calmest snake ever but i can walk by her cage ten times and she will not even look the elventh time i hear her bang the glass trying to get me , no idea why
and i agree with niklas respect is the key no matter if hot or not you should allways anticpate the risk of snakes stirking at you

the "operating distance" is for me the point
"1. Small adult size, under 1M."

for me my own skill is importent.
can i handle arboreal snakes better (perhaps with two hooks)
ore can i handle snakes better wich are living one the ground.

"operating distance - that really is the point.
But what is it?

Just an example:
I dare to say that I have a lot of experience concerning venemous snakes. And especially I am very experienced with Vipera ammodytes, having handled thousands in the wild and in captivity. Most people who know these snakes would say that their striking distance is about 1/3 to 1/2 their body length which is true in normal situations. Many years ago I used to think the Croatian and Serbian name for this snake "poskok" (jumper) is an exaggeration. But in some occasions I was taught that it isn´t. They can have an "operating distance" of more than their body length which means that they can jump under certain conditions, and not only downhill.
In 1976 I got a bite from one (a usually calm one, born and raised in one of my terraria) that was 40 cm. long over a distance of 75 cm. The snake was heated up, very stressed and had a good start from the edge of a wall.

I know many snakes that can do that (and more) and most people would not believe they can.

It´s better being careful (respectful) than learning to be so the hard way.

yes rainer if have seen this phnomona with cerates cerastes as they will ocme juping out of the sand sometimes .
even though not a hot snake a very good species for leanring the operating distance is aborael morelias or liasis species
for instance morelia clastolepsis will come out of its cage with more then two thirds of there body lenght so will liasis savuensis and morelia nautas wich in case of the later two isnt that bad since they dont get to long but facing a 2 m clasto wich will come with 180 cm of there body at you isnt funny cause you can count on it that 8 out of ten times it will do it .
so like i said before allways count on the worst case as in reaciton that could come from a snake

Yes, Stefan,

those are the snakes (among others like some whipsnakes,...) that I would regard as good teachers before somebody starts with "hots".

i would say dont buy a Pseudonaja textilis, ox. canni, Bothrops asper, Naja samarensis, wild caught black mamba Twisted Evil

this topic is so boring......

Christoph, if it bores You please keep in mind that there may be people who read this with great interest (as me).

When and where else do we have the chance to read the opinions of so many REALLY experienced keepers and professionals?

Though I won't keep hots so soon I am really interested in operating distances and related topic for photographical reasons.

i see, but this question is discussed so many times.
in my opinion there is no suitable answer. snakes are individuals. so many peope have one ore two snakes from a species and believe they can evaluate the behavior of the entire species. this is crap.
e g i had nivea which are calm and others like hell.

poison is another big issue. this depends as well as the temper of snakes.
i know about wicked bites from albolabris eg.
many persons dies from it. this is not what i call harmless. nobody died from a inland taipan. untill now! is it harmless? get the idea?
there is nothing like easy thinking. live and especially nature is complex.

Quote :: i know about wicked bites from albolabris eg.
many persons dies from it.

That's quite interesting.
Even if i do not regard albolabris as harmless or at least mildly toxic i'm interested in reliable sources this information is coming from.
Any papers, links, reliable statistics etc?

regards
Peter

therefore post like my arietans is laid back are not helpfull. yours but perhaps not mine!

my criteria would be:

1.) start with a short snake under max 100 cm

2.) dont start with a tree traveller. they are not good for hooking

3.) No taipans, pseudonajas, large bitis (too easy to underestimat), large and medium sized bothrops,mambas, large crotalus, most najas

4.) use and i mean use tools

5.) use hexarmor gloves

6.) use heavy boots

Peter Zürcher wrote:

Quote :: i know about wicked bites from albolabris eg.
many persons dies from it.

That's quite interesting.
Even if i do not regard albolabris as harmless or at least mildly toxic i'm interested in reliable sources this information is coming from.
Any papers, links, reliable statistics etc?

regards
Peter

i read some papers published in thailand. i have them at my home pc and will post them. annual near to 30 persons dies from albolabris in thailand officialy. guess the most bites are not published in this country.

http://www.thaiscience.info/Article%20for%20ThaiScience/Article/6/Ts-6%20the%20effect%20of%20green%20pit%20viper%20%28trimeresurus%20albolabris%29%20venom%20on%20platelet%20morphology%20by%20electron%20microscopy.pdf

http://www.tropicalmedandhygienejrnl.net/article/0035-9203%2890%2990111-Q/abstract

Das interessiert mich auch.

Gruß Fabian

Christoph Meyer wrote:: i would say dont buy a Pseudonaja textilis, ox. canni, Bothrops asper, Naja samarensis, wild caught black mamba

this topic is so boring......

Hi Christoph,

I am intersted in your reason for singling out samarensis in particular? Other than the fact that a first time buyer is unlikely to spend approx. 1000 euros on a snake?

Thanks,
Brett

I think albolabris isn't a good starter, my first was a albolabris and he is good to hooking but she isn't possible to hooking (only with experience and risk).

My wife will starting to working with hots, and i will work with schleglii for the first hot with her,

Little length
realy good to hooking
and normaly not to agressiv

this ar my 3 points for start with this snake.

but attention every snake have her life and it's allways a risk to underestimate.

Greets

Brett Franklin wrote:

Christoph Meyer wrote:: i would say dont buy a Pseudonaja textilis, ox. canni, Bothrops asper, Naja samarensis, wild caught black mamba

this topic is so boring......

Hi Christoph,

I am intersted in your reason for singling out samarensis in particular? Other than the fact that a first time buyer is unlikely to spend approx. 1000 euros on a snake?

Thanks,
Brett

Hi, I can tell you why I singled them. I have 2,3 smarensis and they all are really monsters. Same with the ones by my friend and other people I talked with. They are much more quirley and easy to upset than other najas I worked with. In my opinion they are really frightend and therefore snappy and dangerous. they behave pretty like PNG costal taipans (canni).

I for myself would not be able to work with them as I started with venomous snakes. You can ask Peter Zürcher. He also breeded and keep them. Purhaps he can confirm my experiences.

I sure can confirm that.
Naja samarensis juveniles and adults are defending themselves vigorously at almost all times, showing the keeper again and again what kind of snake he works with.

But isn't there a reason to be aware of these snakes, handling them carefully and therefore never get bitten?
On the other hand, we have calm species (like some of my Naja atra, whose behaviour could easily cause some kind of routine and surprise beginners as well as professionals some day?

Regards

Peter

Indeed. Peters is right.
My samas mostly hide in their shiftbox. I really think of putting it out. But than the working would be much harder.

Hi, I can tell you why I singled them. I have 2,3 smarensis and they all are really monsters. Same with the ones by my friend and other people I talked with. They are much more quirley and easy to upset than other najas I worked with. In my opinion they are really frightend and therefore snappy and dangerous. they behave pretty like PNG costal taipans (canni).

I for myself would not be able to work with them as I started with venomous snakes. You can ask Peter Zürcher. He also breeded and keep them. Purhaps he can confirm my experiences. [/quote]

Have you ever worked with Naja Atra Christoph? Very Happy

They are the definition of high strung and strike at the slightest movement.

Also i would say Daboia and Macrovipera rank among the worst vipers because of their potent venom, large size, temperament and long striking distance.

Daboia are calm and predictable from my point of view. good snakes for the beginning. I started with them. They hook well and puff if they are pissed off. Also they prefer warnstrikes than direct and wet bits...

Not like bothrops who bites first and than look what they hit.

Quote :: Have you ever worked with Naja Atra Christoph? Very Happy They are the definition of high strung and strike at the slightest movement.

With the exception of juveniles, which are ready to defend themselves in almost every species, i cannot confirm that in Naja atra.
Adults of Naja atra (i'm keeping and breeding this species in groups from 3 different localities) could be handled almost like cornsnakes (of course that's not be done that way here!!!)

Individual differences within one species are known, but Naja atra usually belongs to the more calm species in my experiences.
Regards
Peter