Informative site

A friend of mine made a nice looking site about The kings he and a few of his friends keep. Some nice info about these majestic animals and he will try to update a blog regularly.

Informative site Banner6

Udo Schutte wrote:: 'A friend of mine made a nice looking site...'

Is that Mr. Richard Mastenbroek in some of the photographs? Just wondering... Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

The pictures say all that needs to be said.

Jeremy Irwin wrote:: This picture says it all!!!

Here's a link to a previous discussion on this site: http://www.venomland.net/t3831-thoughts-about-handling . The conduct depicted in the video that was posted and then subsequently removed in this Thread defied all reason. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Yes it is, Jon. I didn't post this here to bring up a discussion about the way he handles snakes. I posted it because I think there's a nice piece of information and some nice pictures on that site.
He will try to update the blog as often as he can and in my opinion it's nice to read his passionate story.

To answer a question I read in one of the linked discussions; No, he doesn't encourage freehandling to anyone. I use hooks to handle my animals and i've learned a few things about handling Elapids from Richard. He specificly told me not to freehandle, because it's very dangerous. It's just the way he feels most comfortable with these animals.

Udo Schutte wrote:: To answer a question I read in one of the linked discussions; No, he doesn't encourage freehandling to anyone. I use hooks to handle my animals and i've learned a few things about handling Elapids from Richard. He specificly told me not to freehandle, because it's very dangerous. It's just the way he feels most comfortable with these animals.

Thank you for your clarification, Mr. Schutte. Clearly there are some inconsistencies between what Mr. Mastenbroek says and what he does. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Guest

Thanks for posting the link! I must say the page is well done, i specificly like the report on how to raise baby hannahs. Regarding that there is not much information on the web... Id like to read more about the captive care of king cobras, so i hope the page will be frequently updated!

Concerning Richards way of handling snakes - and posting such photos on the web i fell quite unwell. But we had this discussion before...

I think it would be best to not show freehandling on ophiophagus.nl, so that people are more discussing about the captive care of ophiophagus, and less about certain handling techniques.

Cheers,
Christoph

Hi all, yes this discussion has been had many times before. As for the website Richard is trying to collect and publish as much info on kings as possible i.e helping king cobras and their keepers all over the world, why use it as an excuse to "have a go".

Also, publishing pics of people without their permission on here is not allowed, not that im bothered as i can back up how I handle and will be in articles for the website soon. I dont free handle any species apart from 5 foot+ kings. This is for good reason (although not for everyone) If you dont know these reasons you obviously dont have extensive experience withKings, if any!!!

Smile

Christoph Denk wrote:: Thanks for posting the link! I must say the page is well done, i specificly like the report on how to raise baby hannahs. Regarding that there is not much information on the web... Id like to read more about the captive care of king cobras, so i hope the page will be frequently updated!

Concerning Richards way of handling snakes - and posting such photos on the web i fell quite unwell. But we had this discussion before...

I think it would be best to not show freehandling on ophiophagus.nl, so that people are more discussing about the captive care of ophiophagus, and less about certain handling techniques.

Cheers,
Christoph

So... the credibility of the author of the information that you seek is not a concern for you, Mr. Denk? Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Guest

Mr. Davidson,

without doubt all sources of information should be questioned, not only on snake forums but also when watching for example FO* news or reading certain daily papers Laughing

As far as i know Richard Mastebroek has sucessfully raised a baby king - which gives his writeup all the credibility i need. This is completely independent from liking or disliking certain handling techniques, etc.

All the best,
Christoph

Christoph Denk wrote:: 'without doubt all sources of information should be questioned...'

'As far as i know Richard Mastebroek has sucessfully raised a baby king...'

As far as you know being the critical point in this discussion. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Mark Dainty wrote:: 'I dont free handle any species apart from 5 foot+ kings. This is for good reason (although not for everyone) If you dont know these reasons you obviously dont have extensive experience withKings, if any!!!'

Perhaps you could explain for us, Mr. Dainty- based on your 'extensive experience'- what reason you have for free handling five foot plus sized King Cobras? Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Large Kings with heavy bodies react badly to being sat on a thin piece of metal pushing against their organs, therefore having a more aggressive, faster moving harder to handle snake.

Also remember there is always a second experienced handler who will keep the cobras attention, plus a gloved hand can be used to push or redirect a king when or if it turns, grabs are always at the ready for emergency and hooks used to position the snakes body before picking it up. So i dont see it has exactly free handling i.e picking a venomous snake up with no protection and letting it go where it desires. There is a marked difference.

Also remember when pioneers to King handling like Grace Wiley and the great Bill Haast mastered handling in this way they were not attacked like what seems to happen now. I personally dont like using grabs as an every day handling technique, some people do, i'm not going to start discrediting them for it. Handling is a personal choice and as the handler you are the one at risk and therefore should handle your prefered way not in a way that pleases everyone else.

Thanks

http://ophiophagus.nl/?attachment_id=882

Are these pictures really necessary to spread serious informations about Ophiophagus?

I think the site, which is just started, but well done so far, doesn't need that.

I see a disaccord between this picture i posted here (only a link!) and the site-owner's conclusion "freehandling is dangerous" (as stated here) as well as the fact that the site-owner reported a bite through these gloves by a Naja kaouthia one year ago.

regards
Peter

Quote :: Also remember when pioneers to King handling like Grace Wiley and the great Bill Haast mastered handling in this way they were not attacked like what seems to happen now.

That might be right, but Mrs. Wiley died from a cobra bite, and - more important, wether Mrs. Wiley nor Mr. Haast have done their "thing" nowadays when the whole venomous community is increasingly under observation and pressure by public and authorities.
regards
Peter

Mark Dainty wrote:: Large Kings with heavy bodies react badly to being sat on a thin piece of metal pushing against their organs, therefore having a more aggressive, faster moving harder to handle snake.

Also remember there is always a second experienced handler who will keep the cobras attention, plus a gloved hand can be used to push or redirect a king when or if it turns, grabs are always at the ready for emergency and hooks used to position the snakes body before picking it up. So i dont see it has exactly free handling i.e picking a venomous snake up with no protection and letting it go where it desires. There is a marked difference.

Also remember when pioneers to King handling like Grace Wiley and the great Bill Haast mastered handling in this way they were not attacked like what seems to happen now. I personally dont like using grabs as an every day handling technique, some people do, i'm not going to start discrediting them for it. Handling is a personal choice and as the handler you are the one at risk and therefore should handle your prefered way not in a way that pleases everyone else.

Thanks

Thank you for clarifying the 'marked difference' in the methodology you have outlined here and your earlier comments of: 'I don't free handle any species apart from 5 foot+ kings'. Please note that Ms. Grace Olive Wiley was killed by a cobra that she was free handling and Mr. Bill Haast had venom research as his pretext for free handling live venomous snakes. As Mr. Zurcher has noted, times change and the whole concept of the private ownership of live venomous snakes is under greater scrutiny by legislators who may very well ask the same kinds of questions that have been asked in this and the accompanying discussions. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Everyones entitle to their opinion, im definately not going to change mine. I've discussed this time and time again so I wish to leave it here. I can not give up enough of my time to keep checking back here, i rarely come on here due to this. I do apreciate your points though. 1 last point, Grace Wiley was not killed by a King but a Common Cobra, as i said said i feel hook and tail is needed for these compared to kings.

OK 2 points Smile

remember people have been bitten when using "conventional" handling methods too. An occupational hazard that however we look at it will always remain when handling venomous snakes.

Thank you for the discussion

Mark

I think the site looks very good and i dont have found any other site like this before.
I only have a little experience of kings myself and i think they are much different with behavior from other cobras.

Mark Dainty wrote:: Everyones entitle to their opinion, im definately not going to change mine. I've discussed this time and time again so I wish to leave it here. I can not give up enough of my time to keep checking back here, i rarely come on here due to this. I do apreciate your points though. 1 last point, Grace Wiley was not killed by a King but a Common Cobra, as i said said i feel hook and tail is needed for these compared to kings.

OK 2 points remember people have been bitten when using "conventional" handling methods too. An occupational hazard that however we look at it will always remain when handling venomous snakes.

Thank you for the discussion

Mark

You certainly seem anxious for a discussion here, otherwise you wouldn't keep coming back to post on the Thread. The most pertinent question with regard to this Ophiophagus.nl site remains unanswered, and that is: What is the purpose of free handling a live venomous snake? What is it exactly that the keeper is doing that requires them to pick up a live venomous snake with their bare hands? Here is a quote form this site: 'Ophiophagus.nl will show picture(sic)of people free-handling King Cobras with or without Hexarmor gloves. We show this pictures(sic)only when the King Cobra in the picture is valuable for the information in the written article(sic). Ophiophagus.nl will not support or stimulate any kind of free-handling with King Cobras, neither they will explain(sic) how the techniques work with free-handling'. Maybe this is a case of do what I say and not what I do? Perhaps the owner of Ophiophagus.nl will explain for us all the 'valuable information' that we might be enlightened with by free handling a live venomous snake? Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

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