First Venomous/Information

Hey Everyone,

I have been on this site now for a few months gather information and enjoying everyones posts/photos and I know this subject gets awefully run down with a bunch of new comers but I would like to know what people reccomend as a first venomous snake. I know there isn't a real "good" first venomous because they are all dangerous but I have had experience with rear-fanged snakes such as Hydrodynastes gigas, Boiga Dendrophilia and some others. When working with these animals I have always used a hook and made sure to stay outside of striking range as well as follow all of my set protocals. The problem for me is that I have to be self-taught as I live in a very small rural community and don't own a vehicle to try and apprentice with someone (closest one is 4 hours away). So now after working with these guys for a few years just wanted to see what you guys reccomend as a first. I am not planning on running out and buying one but to consider which ones to look at over the next few years until I finally decide to get one.

All questions and criticism welcome.

Thanks in advance,
Dillon

Hydrodynates and Boiga ARE venomous, despite being opisthoglyphs. Personally I would recommend A. contortrix for vipers/pitvipers - others may recommend different. Others I would look at in your situation would be T. popeorum, T. alboralbis, C. cerastes (sidewinder not sahara horned), T. wagleri, B. schlegelii, maybe even V. ammodytes.
All of these can put a serious hurt on you but not likely to kill you outright, and not likely to cause permanent damage (although it is certainly possible if you are unlucky or stupid).

Yeah I know they are venomous but the venom is much milder than most other venomous snakes that is why I chose to start with them before working my way up into more venomous snakes.

I do want to thank you for your recommendations, they are all great and absolutely stunning animals. I will certainly keep all of them in mind when I decide to finally acquire my "first" venomous snake.

Yeah, I certainly understand that even though they are milder than other venomous snakes it doesn't mean it won't hurt like hell if I were to get bit, but I am never stupid when I handle my snakes now let alone with a much more venomous one. I am always 100% focused and take as many safety precautions as possible. That's not to say in some freak accident I wouldn't get bit, but I am certainly gonna try and prevent it as much as possible.

Thanks again,
Dillon

http://www.venomland.net/t2784-starter-hot Here is the topic I started. There is no great starter hot. My opinion is that your first hot has to be one that is less likely to kill you (ofc. every venomous snake can kill you under certain circumstances) if you make a mistake. For example my first hot is definitely going to be V. ammodytes because there is antivenom in every hospital if something goes wrong. Easy to hook, keep, non-agressive and small (less likely to tag you because of smaller strike range) snakes are a bonus. I know people who have started with C. durissus actually most of the guys who are keeping or have kept venomous snakes in Bulgaria started with it because it has been bred several times. And thus far 2 (maybe 3) guys have been tagged by a durissus. All were dry bites.

I've read these entries with interest. Of course, all have their positive aspects, but in my opinion one should always treat every venomous snake as potentially capable of delivering a fatal bite. It can be correctly argued that some venoms are not as toxic as others and therefore animals which deliver less toxic venom are safer. This is a fallacy as each bite has to be judged independently. The reaction of the human body to an injection of venom plays a major part. I know of a man who received a full bite from a pygmy rattlesnake (normally considered as less dangerous) and died 45 minutes later through anaphylactic shock before any medical attention could be administered. A young friend of mine received a full bite from an ammodytes viper and barely survived, spending a week in a London hospital and losing part of his finger. As a rule of thumb (forgive the pun) treat every venomous snake as being possibly able to end your life prematurely. Some snakes are less prone to aggressive behaviour in their own defence, but there are the exceptions to every rule. Never underestimate the capabilities of a venomous snake.....the most dangerous one is the one that just bit you.
Just some of my thoughts.
Regards,
Peter.

My experience with smaller true vipers, such as V. ammodytes, V. latastei and V.berus is that they do not hook well (I find same sized Crotalus species more easy to hook) and they are very flighty/nervous and unpredictable.

How is that "mild"?? V. ammodytes it seems can indeed kill I don't consider it a "mild" species venom wise at all. my local Agkistrodon contortrix could be considered "mild" but it could still put a hurting on someone of cours allergic reaction can happen. I think "mild" is a subjective term myself

I guess you got me wrong. I didn't mean that ammodytes hooks well or etc. What I meant was that if the snake (not ammodytes but some snake) had those characteristics It's a bonus to the weaker venom and easy access to antivenom. I know of several bites from ammodytes in Bulgaria and non were anything special for the exception of one. No one in Bulgaria has died from a snake. I guess ammodytes venom is weaker in my region. Does somebody know more about ammodytes venom in different regions? I think Mr. Rainer fesser could help with this.

Could you please stop using the terms "weak" and "comparatively weak" venom.

I think im going to stop using the terms "weak" and "mild" as it seems its very subjective and ammodytes venom. Doesn't at all sound "weak' or "mild" it sounds like some very very nasty stuff of which I wouldn't want to take a hit from same with A.contortrix. Again called "mild" and "weak" venom wise.....

Be very careful not to underestimate the bite of an ammodytes viper. My friend was a teenager when he was bitten on the finger. The symptoms were extremely serious and his parents were told by the hospital that he probably would not survive the night. Against all expectations, he made it , but lost a part of his finger. Do not treat ammodytes different to any other venomous snake. They are dangerous and should be treated with utmost respect.
Peter.

So I think its been established V. ammodytes is highly venomous and dangerous

In my opinion,no exist more or less venomous snake.

This is relative.

And you can run the risk of dying because of a bite from a Dendroaspis or a Naja haje, or have serious consequences!

Be careful with these "ratings".

I think it might be wise to examine your local laws/bylaws first. I know Canada has some strict laws surrounding the keeping of venomous snakes. Breaking these laws and getting caught will do nobody in the herp community over there any favours.

Personally I would recommend some of the Aspidelaps sp. They are small, hook quite well and hopefully won’t land you in a box. Whatever you decide to get please do a lot of research and make sure you know exactly what to do in case of a bite.

Hey Dillon,

first of all Michael Burmeister has a good point about checking the laws.

As everybody said; There is no good beginners venomous snake. In my opinion you have to ask yourself a few questions.

*What species do I eventually want to keep.
*What kind of venomous snake do I like? (Arboreal, terrestrial, ambush-predator or active hunter)
*What species do I have experience with and what venomous species are similar in behavior? If you only have worked with slow snakes, I wouldn't recommend Aspidelaps because you don't have experience with fast moving snakes.

I think there are several species that can be suitable for a beginner, depending on experience and preferences.

For arboreal species I think Trimeresurus albolabris can be used as a starter. Active arboreal hunters a re all a big nono, because they are fast and most often highly venomous.

For active terrestrial species Aspidelaps is appropriate.

For rattlesnakes a pygmee species Sistrurus could work.
American copperheads Agkistrodon contortrix ssp can also be used to start with.

European vipers can also be suitable for a beginner. These are not easy to obtain in the U.S. and Canada for as far as I know.

Read in to it and choose a snake species that suits you. Don't aim too high, it's better to work your way up a bit. Try to visit another venomous keeper, even though it's a 4hrs drive. Just visiting once and watching some proceedings and maybe handle a little with some supervision can teach you so much.

Good luck and watch your fingers... Wink

Even Boiga dendrophila, which I started with can give a nasty wound and some systemic effects.

I think Chrysopelea ornata, is probably a good animal to cross the venomous barrier. I also learned a little with this beauty in the beginning about keeping venomous from "escaping" their enclosure.

Regards Ron

Well I started with a southern copperhead although i guess it could vary for what you have available I wouldn't be able. To get a European viper for sure as they are hard to come by here no good first venomous really there is better but not best a copperhead can still put a hurting on you or kill depending on a persons specific reaction to the venom.

Hey Everyone,

I do want to thank you for all your posts. As for Canadian laws against venomous reptiles, Canada in itself doesn't have anything against importing/exporting venomous reptiles. It all comes down to bylaws, I myself live in a county in which there are no animal bylaws so I would be able to own any venomous I choose. I myself am looking for one that is good with hook handling, small strike range, etc. We do have 1 venomous snake here in Canada which is the Missasagua Rattle Snake (Sistrusus Cantenatus) but in Canada it is illegal to keep natural wildlife as captives because I was considering using it due to the fact that there would be an antivenom for it where as with other snakes I would have to get the antivenom shipped in from say the United States or another country which would cost a pretty penny...

I don't plan on moving the snake unless I absolutely need to (Cleaning the cage, changing a light). I am going to custom build any/all of my venomous enclosures so that they are 100% escape proof with double locking glass doors, etc.

I myself don't really believe that there are "good" first venomous snakes to own as they are all venomous and can all kill with one bite but I am trying to find ones that are easy to handle with a hook and are relatively small but still attractive to the eye such as Bothriechis schlegelii or Atheris squamigera.

Atheris squamigera is a no joke snake it might be small but are highly venomous you'll have to ask other members. About them as my knowledge is limited with them Bothriechis schlegelii is one im interested as well it might be a safer option then the Atheris squamigera.

Yeah I wasn't planning on using one of those as one of my firsts but simply mentioning the ones I am interested in.

Well everyone told me smaller pit vipers like copperheads and pygmy rattlesnakes too bad about the Missasagua. They are supposed to be pretty hardy snakes and good captives but their venom is a lot more toxic then a copperheads from what ive heard and read.

What you ultimately want to work with will (or should) determine what you get for a first - if you want to work with Mambas or Taipans getting a rattlesnake isnt going to translate well.
My suggestion would be if you want to work with Elapids try and get a Coral Cobra (Aspidelaps lubricus, A. scutatus, A. l. cowlesi).
If you are interested in working with Atheris then get a Bothreichis schleglelii, T. popeorum or T. alobolabris, or even a Boiga as these are all highly arboreal snakes.
Want to work with rattlers? Get a Crotalus cerastes or a Sistrurus. Want to work with the BIG ground vipers like Puffs and Gabbys, get a Bitis caudalis...
Just my opinion of course...

The first venomous keeper I ever worked with told me the BEST venomous "first" would be a Haitian Tree Boa (E. gracilis)! They are super nervous, they dont usually hook well, they can be lightning quick and they strike at everything. He told me to get one and keep a log every time I got bitten by it...and count the bites at the end of the year - that was how many times I had died.
Have to admit, I got a pair but I only kept them a few months - they were hell on wheels! Even more aggressive than my Boigas, and thats saying something!

for venomous I would like to keep Ophiophagus hannah, all Naja species, Bitis Gabonica, Dendroaspis polylepis and Atheris squamigera. Those being my main snakes I would really like to own.

I don't really have a preference to whether it is arboreal or terrestrial because I enjoy all venomous species and would like to own different species, hopefully one from each group ranging from elapids to different viperidae and everything in between...

Getting experience with somebody else's hots should be your first step.
There is no snake that acts enough like a hot snake to be a good enough practice snake.

Availability of anti-venom is should be one of your biggest deciding factors on what to keep.
Here in Canada, the only anti-venom your local hospital *might* have is Crofab.
You should contact them and see what they have in stock, or have quick access to.

Crofab limits your choices to smaller rattlers (Sistrurus, C. mitchelli ect.) or Agkistrodon.
Sistrurus, Crotalus, and Agkistrodon are readily available in Canada if you know the right people.

Look hard for a mentor, you'd be surprised how many hot keepers there are in this great country of ours. Most are just very secrative about what they do.

Good luck!

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