SI - Self Immunization

Hello guys,

I'm not a hot-keeper yet, but I'm very interested in venomous snakes. Now I read a lot about an aspect of keeping hotties, which is known as SI (Self Immunization) which means injecting small amounts of diluted venom and raise immunity by rising the amount of venom over a period of time. As I know a little of immunization and IgG I believe that can work, if you don't overdose.

So does anybody here practice SI. I know about most of the front-players in that area (Bill Haast - Founder of Miami Serpentarium, Tim Friede, Ray Hunter and so on) - but is there anybody in Europe (esp. Central Europe) doing SI or interested in, to share some information,

Best
Markus.

Mr. Wöhrenschimmel,

what do you expect from SI? Do you think that this will prevent or protect you if you are doing a big mistake handling a venomous snake?
Every process to "milk" the venom of the snake will raise the chance to get bitten. And you will stress the snake.
We are not keeping animals to stress them for feeding our personal egoism.
How are you sure that SI works, if you have never keep venomous snakes?

Just my 2 cents,

Regards,

It' not the case, that I want to try SI - I even don't know if I ever will keep venomous reptils - I want to, but have to get the homely permit - awarded by my wife ;-)  (actually just dealing with p. regius and p. reticulatus). The points are

1. (medical) There are are thousand of dead per year, so people doing SI research might find a cheap tool (mechanism) to prevent people from dying by snakebites, like we have for Ixodida for example. Many people in Asia, Africa can not pay for treatment there - so loose limbs or worst case their live.

2. (keeper, field-herpologists) Why not prevent them from deadly accidents - that's a controversial argument, I know. But you gave me some aspects (stress for the animal) to think about -> If someone keeps or does research on venomous snakes - has to deal with the risks (It's a moral aspect - can take years to get the point done). Keeping snakes (animals at all) is always a kind egoism, so for me that argument is not a strong one.

3. (personal) I'm a reptile-addicted :-) and actually preparing a PhD in complete different profession (bioinformatics). As a functional core I try to work in the area snake-venoms and try to catch application-ideas  - targeting, medical usage - don't what to deep dive here :-) - will do in later postings. As I'm at the beginning I have only some vague ideas, so I'm collecting all the different views on the topic snakes (venom, morphology, statistics, taxonomy, phylogenetics of reptiles ...)


SI works - there are many people doing it. I have contacted some of them, they are all alive and can beat snakebites form taipans, cobras etc. But what I'm curious about if there are people in Europe doing SI. There is also a Facebook-community (whatever one might think about facebook) on that topic facebook-group -> 531485500206870


best regards

Hello Markus,

you are right in one point: SI works or better said: May work.
You mention "a cheap tool... like we have for Ixodide for example". That´s not the fact, it´s a vaccine against an infection by a Flavivirus (FSME in German, TBE in English) that is usually transmitted by a tick (Ixodes ricinus).
Mechanisms for immunisation against snake venom are different and much more complicated, additionally snakes have a cocktail of different agents in their venom. But it still might work though it´s risky. The main problem is that there is a big chance to become allergic instead of immune. I know a number of people who had to quit keeping certain species of snakes because the had becom highly allergic by inhaling the dust of the venom of Spitting Cobras from the glass of their terraria. I know several people who became allergic from bites or scratches by a fang from species of Agkistrodon, Vipera and Crotalus.
So, if someone wants to do SI, I would say that he should make each injection of venom under surveillance of adoctor who is skilled in dealing with a severe allergic reaction. This may be possible and make sense if some researcher who has to deal with venomous snakes makes SI but how do you want to immunize millions of people to prevent thousands of them per year from dying from snakebites? Additionally, if you take only India, how many species would you use for immunisation? What about those people who did not get immune but allergic? A minor bite that would not have been a problem otherwise might kill them quicker than the venom would normally do, minimizing the chance to save them by adequate treatment.
One thing that I think should not be done at all: Showing how easy all that can be done and how effective it is without pointing to the risks too.

That´s just some of my ideas concerning this subject.

I have been handling venomous snakes for decades now, in my home and when doing research on them in the wild. Nevertheless the question for me never was about immunisation for myself but about dealing with the animals cautiously, causing as little stress to the snakes and as little risk for myself as possible. And up to now the result tells me I´m right.

Best regards,
Rainer

Good morning fellow!

I find very interesting this subject because I have at home has long poisonous snakes. in fact the only animals that interest me, kid and reproduce is anyone poison.

More this issue is not new all born with the history of Mithridates 120-63 BC that began creating SI to prevent the rival leaders was murdered, but in my experience with these specimens I've realized that it's not worth risking . Since the risk is greater than the benefit.

I am paramedical professional with 15 years of experience, I am married and have two young children and I personally am studying toxinology species to improve prehospital treatment in my country and train people in case of venomous accidents.

And I can say with scientific basis and according to published works both doctors, herpetological and pharmaceutical among others that:

1. snake venom varies from one individual to another within the same species, according to age, geographical area, type of food and individual adaptations. Which means that periodically you find specimens of new locations and ages to make your SI.

2. adaptation of IgG if it works for a period of time only because the more contact you have with your toxins IgG is saturated and begin to suffer from hypersensitivity, which translates into anaphylactic shock causes death within minutes from respiratory failure.

3. Always complete toxin through the blood brain barrier (BBB) which is responsible for acid base balance in the brain and cerebrospinal fluid. For a good functioning of neurons. But when the toxin through this barrier even if diluted and dosed, neurons are altered both in its morphological form and function thereby altering all brain functions and stimulating receptors and enzymes to create a mechanism of self-intoxication which is summarized in moderate allergic reactions or serious (Anaphylactic Shock).

4. agree with Rainer Fesser, because when handling the various specimens of different sizes, complexions and poisons, just common sense and respecting the security protocols for these cases because no need if prevention is the basis of everything and minimize the potential risks !, you have personally I've only had an accident with a Crotalus durissus 1.20 meters and was on my recklessness when he was young .. to bite my fortune was without injecting venom and had no major problem.

5. My personal recommendation is that if poisonous animals in captivity'll have only to see his wonderful creation .. They are not a dog or cat that touch every 5 minutes you take selfies so that others will see and you worship. They involve full responsibility and maturity.

Before entering the world of poisons I invite you to think of because you want to do? You want to try? Worth taking the risk? And many more ....

No more .... To your order if you so require ..

Omar A Nelo.

Hello,

I appreciate all your opinions on that specific topic. But I don't want to do a further discussion on the aspects, if it's a good or bad idea to do SI. I share your opinion, that perfect handling-skills, are obligatory for every hot-keeper - I neither want to get a superhero nor even try SI.

As mentioned I'm a PhD-student (although I'm very old - 45) and want to catch all aspects on snake-venom. Another one is antibacterial potential of snake-venom - and there will come more.

But thank you for your input - it will give a new baseline for further research.

Best
Markus

Hi Markus.

As we are according to the order you need .

Regrats

I personally wouldn't try it on myself nor recommend this practice, self injecting is quite a gamble.
However I don't think of it as a "bad thing", there are people out there who successfully perform it without dying minutes later.
In my point of view the fact that it works with some individuals is just outstanding, therefore it remains dangerous. There is no guarantee that your organism may "tolerate" snake venom after all.
Regards P