self envenomation

Hey guys,

watch this video.Crazy!!! Shocked

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNF3eA9D2Ek

Stupid behaviour and stuff which has to be deleted from the web. ( unfortunately not possible )
Such videos are watched by many people and snakes look more harmless, maybe a foolish people makes the same with own snakes to publish it on the same way. -> Well a Darwin-Award is a nice thing
There are too many videos published on the web, not worth to be seen.

Has anyone told Karl that they are experimenting using epitope strands and camels (Simon Wagstaff for one) to lessen the occurrences of anaphylaxis? It seems like it would be a good idea to see if anyone is interested FIRST, before getting the crap bitten out of your arm by rattlesnakes. Hmmmm. Well, thanks for posting this video it was very interesting. cyclops

this crazy and there is more then one video

Hmm, i think i know Karl from a Mexico trip about 20 years ago.
He did some self-envenomation with mexican rear fanged snakes then.
It surprises me to see him still doing such things.............

regards
Peter

peter if hes been doing this 20 years and longer i am surprised he still alive

OMG

Why would someone do that?

Well, they don't make Quaaludes anymore. This is just one theory. drunken

There is a new documentary on this topic:
http://press.discovery.com/us/apl/programs/snake-man/

Well, is there some sort of data that supports his theory? I mean, are there instances of someone with a preexisting medical condition getting a snakebite, and the result is that symptoms are alleviated? Is he treating himself for some illness in this manner? I am sort of confused. They already use venom for high blood pressure medication etc, what is the advantage of injecting yourself vs. going to the pharmacy?

Hello Kelly,

I don´t think there are any existing data for that theory. Snake venoms are complex-molecules and less is known about medical effects ( and I think many toxins are still under investigation for medical effects ), on the other the chance of anaphylaxis gets higher with each bite, or is it not correct?
Snakes venoms like the product Ancrod ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancrod ) are used in stroke management, but if the same venom from a snake will have same effects...hm
lottery

Interesting question indeed for ours systematicus

Hi Fabian,

So there is no advantage that you are aware of, for being bitten rather than just proceeding to the pharmacy unless he has some condition he thinks might be improved by venom for which there is currently no medication? I wish there were more details on the motives of these guys. I know that in some countries they use bee stings for an arthritis treatment and was wondering if it was some variation of that.

Quote :: I wish there were more details on the motives of these guys.

The internet is making their own. I'm looking at some forums to find bites of colubrids for my site , to display aftereffects in addition to papers.
http://www.rear-fanged.com/heterodon.html ( one example )

Lucky enough I find more and more people who are bitten on purpose.

So I don´t ask myself , why people do something - Darwin-Awards

Thanks

Nice work on your site. You have added quite a bit since I last visited Cool!

Yes. I update the site frequently, but I forgot the marquee text at home where everything new have been updated...

Here's another "self-envenomator", working with Dendroaspis polylepis:
http://www.timfriede.com/index.shtml

What??That´s now totaly crazy.What´s wrong with this Guys.Deathwishes? Shocked

Survival of the fittest ... the problem will solve itself.

Hi Guenter,
Unfortunately the stupid generally replicate themselves in large numbers before becoming extinct. This ensures that there are plenty of them, occupying all ecological niches at all times. Suspect

Believe it or not

There is a "tribe" in greece able to self envenomation and produce serum

In this case it is recommended ,

horses are no longer necessary...Klick

Kelly, sometimes we have to close our eyes, neglect the reality and hope for the best Very Happy

Back to serious discussion:
People like these (and people who show videos of risky handling with really dangerous snakes) damage our hobby seriously in the public opinion. I do not know how to handle that but maybe we should just ignore them.

Kelly,

I think the reason people do this is in the belief that they will develop an immunity to the venom of the snakes they are handling. The logic behind it being that if horses, sheep and other mammals can be immunized with venom to the point where their antibodies can neutralize its deleterious effects, then why not humans? The one fact they seem to overlook is that if a sheep or horse dies in the course of envenomation it probably won't make headlines in the newspapers!

There is some anecdotal evidence to support their hypothesis, namely the years of self-envenomation by Bill Haast, the founder of the Miami Serpentarium. Mr. Haast routinely immunized himself with the venoms of certain dangerous species for which antivenin was not made at the time, or was not readily accessable. This may have saved his life on occasions where he suffered bites from elapids. He is credited with saving the lives of a few people by donating blood transfusions to the victims of exotic snakebite (including a krait bite victim) in the US before the advent of modern antivenins.

With the high risks of anaphylaxis, the myriad of toxic effects of venomand the availability of antivenins, I don't see any reason for people to be doing things like this. Save up some money, find a good doctor and buy the antivenins yourself (or at least find out how you can have access to them)! If people can't handle that, then you peobably shouldn't keep venomous snakes.

Guenter,

I don't think ignoring these people is an option. There should be some kind of safety regulations (and perhaps an intelligence test) for people to keep these animals. Number one on the rules should be: Don't intentionally let your snakes bite you!!!!

Unfortunately, I think it's going to take one of these idiots killing themselves and our hobby being banned before this nonsense stops.

Hi Luke,

It seems weird though suspect:, because there is plenty of data that antivenom works, and there is research being done to find alternatives that are less likely to cause a reaction using camels etc. With adrenaline and other drugs to treat reactions, why do it? Are they not reading, or do they really believe that human antibodies are the only way to go? I don't know that I would want any antibodies from Carl. Would you want blood products from these guys? It just seems like the reasons that they are stating, do not make sense in light of the facts of the matter. Thank you for the info, but this whole idea of self immunization makes no sense to me. Im sooooo confused..... Very Happy

I just watched a show where a guy self-injected himself with a normally lethal dose of Black Mamba venom and beyond some local swelling there were no effects. Apparently, he also replicated this experiment with a species of Cobra, but it was edited out because of time crunch. The center that this guy works for is actually looking to derive actual venom vaccinations (and from what I understand, they're FDA certified).

Is it stupid to let a snake bite you and hope to accomplish the same thing? Completely and absolutely. But under controlled situations and stepping up to full envenomations, it has the potential to work. But either way, the movement isn't as small as one would think, at least not in the US.

Kelly,

I want blood products from these guys about as much as I want a bushmaster bite to the eyeball! I think they're doing it more to save themselves in the event of a bite than for some kind of altruistic reasons. Either way it's ill-advised and casts a shadow over our hobby. There's some science behind it (in theory at least), so people take those ideas and run with them wothout much thought to the consequences. Although there is data that antivenin works, perhaps their thought process is: "Why should I pay $100 000 for antivenin at the hospital when I can make my own for free?" Another reason these guys do this could be the risk of anaphylaxis from antivenin therapy, but the same risk exists from the snake venom itself so that's a moot point.

On another piont, snake's mouthes are known to harbour some nasty bacteria and puncture wounds usually end up with the worst types of infections. The risks to being bitten by a snake go beyond the effects of the venom.

Alex,

I agree that if the self-envenoming works to produce enough antibodies, the benefit could be great, but does the risk taken justify that benefit? That's a question people have to decide for themselves. Unfortunately, the eyes of the world will be on the rest of us whenever someone screws up.