self envenomation

Guenter Leitenbauer wrote:

Back to serious discussion:
People like these (and people who show videos of risky handling with really dangerous snakes) damage our hobby seriously in the public opinion. I do not know how to handle that but maybe we should just ignore them.

well Guenther, sometimes, someone does not think about the "Hobbyist" - might be, because they work professionally with snakes and get

A.) different Handling-skills than others;
B.) a totally different Point of View;
C.) different targets than others;

and i think i could continue that list forever...


believe me, it is a difference if you take care as hobbyist of 20 venomous snakes, or if you run a operation where you have to take care of 1000+ venomous snakes, where you have to touch several of them on a daily basis, maybe for medical treatment, maybe they milk them for science or an anti-venom program.

i do understand their risk is so much more higher to receive a dangerous bite than yours, sure, clearly they have a different view to the use of antivenin and their own protection. i am not much of a friend of self immunization, but i dont see it that negative than others would. and as far as i can see that, almost all of them have clear statements on their homepages stating that it is very dangerous to do what they doing.

i also see the benefits of it, peoples like Bill Hast and others would possible not survived that much serious bites without having a little immunization against certain proteins. In the end, they experimentally working on their own Bodies, playing with their own lives, choosing their own way.... ill respect that..

maybe some of our scientists here can enlighten us from a scientific point of view, maybe some one has been able to study such "folks"...??

cheers
Mario

Hi Luke,

Do you know if tetanus is a risk from a bite? I know they give shots for this if you are stung by a scorpion, but don't know about snakes.

Normally Clostridium tetani is not located in mouth of snakes, but maybe on dust , skin or something similar.
Tetanus prophylaxis is recommended anyway!

Thanks Fabian. This topic just gets weirder and weirder!

Mario Lutz wrote:

i also see the benefits of it, peoples like Bill Hast and others would possible not survived that much serious bites without having a little immunization against certain proteins. In the end, they experimentally working on their own Bodies, playing with their own lives, choosing their own way.... ill respect that..

The topic is that they give a complete counterproductive example in the public which must and will lead to laws that totally forbid any private keeping. They have a responsibility. They should respect this. I don't care if they are professionals or not. It's always the impression in the (non snakekeeping) public that counts, if we like it or not. That's politics.

Guenter Leitenbauer wrote:

Mario Lutz wrote:

i also see the benefits of it, peoples like Bill Hast and others would possible not survived that much serious bites without having a little immunization against certain proteins. In the end, they experimentally working on their own Bodies, playing with their own lives, choosing their own way.... ill respect that..

The topic is that they give a complete counterproductive example in the public which must and will lead to laws that totally forbid any private keeping. They have a responsibility. They should respect this. I don't care if they are professionals or not. It's always the impression in the (non snakekeeping) public that counts, if we like it or not. That's politics.

have you taken the time and got trug their papers, articles, homepages etc?
are you sure, its different to other immunizations like Tetanus, Hepatitis, Bird Flue etc. where someone claims it might be harmless to use alive organism in order to give you a immunization?

what makes you believe their statement "must and will lead to laws that totally forbid any private reptile keeping"? dont you think that politicians around the world do not give a damn about you and others right to keep reptilians in the first place, does'nt matter if someone on the other end of the world practices self-immunization or if someone else steals a bicycle in Sri Lanka?

Look over the German/Austrian Boarder.... they even dont give a f... if their policies (Haltungsverordnung fuer gefaehrliche Tierarten und oder Mindesthaltungsverordung fuer exotische Tierarten) even makes sense or non at all... whether you like it or not, keeping alive snakes, lizards and amphibians is "generally" considered as nuts. the majority of your and mine country fellow man thinks that way, their goose bumps is what gives you and others a difficult time to understand your wish to study and breed snakes, not some south-african guys, talking about self immunizing themselves or not.

senseless discussions inside the reptile lover community, (like this topic here) gives others the impression that they are right in their believes, as it proofs to them, even the "professionals" are arguing about it... one example is the useless and overestimated discussions on german boards like (schlangengrube.de , dght.de etc.pp.) about, if the keeping of venomous reptilians, by "non-professionals" is really necessary or not in the first place. let me tell you, the breeders of Iguana iguana, Pogona vitticeps and Elaphe g. gutatta believing, that peoples like you (well not you, as you dont keep any venomous snakes at all) and other members here at venomland are the ones putting the whole hobby at risk by their senseless wish to keep venomous snakes at all.

VenomLand was and still is committed, especially to the professional and semi-professionals, venomous snake keeping community around the world. i dont see any way, why we would be in a need to "outcast" border fields like (self-immunization, free handling etc.pp) within our field of interest, it does not matter to me how you see things, it matters that we will be able to discuss those things with distance and professionalism, without the usual blame and ignorance. that is for politicians and the rest of the ignorant main stream in the world.

I don't know how it is in the Philippines, Mario, but in middle Europe the direction towards more and more restrictive laws is obvious.

To point that out a bit more clearly: I don't give a damn about their papers and homepages, it is the impression in the public what triggers politicians and if they see some more votes when changing the laws they will do so right before the next election.

To Your last sentence:
I did not open this thread, I did not harm anyone, and I think my arguments were as emotionless as possible with this topic. If You put that much emphasis into it, it is Your fault if this thread drifts in a more and more emotional direction.

I will step out of this thread now - it seems to get more and more needless.

There is no need to step out of the discussion Guenther... i see where you coming from and what your point is.. i dont think you wrong in what you saying, i just have a different entry on that topic...

i still would love to see if some of the Venomologists / MDs / Toxicologists have results on whether or not it has shown results...


cheers

and by the way, everything is my Fault!

Quote :

are you sure, its different to other immunizations like Tetanus, Hepatitis,

it is very different indeed, Mario - on different levels - and i'm sure you know that.

Interesting statement by Joel LA ROCQUE about risks and value of self envenomation:
http://ezinearticles.com/?Self-Immunization---A-Dangerous-Road-To-Travel&id=2947421

I think we have to separate people like Bill HAAST, who did that all in a very professional way (and even gave his blood on several occasions as an antivenin to snakebite victims) - and private imitators lacking completely scientific background, just presenting their doing on YouTube or elsewhere as show acts.
Furthermore i do separate professionals handling venomous snakes in a way that might look dangerous and unserious to laymen, but is usus among professionals - and private actors kissing cobras or fondling mambas just for nothing than a cheap, ego-stabilizing performance.

To damn everything that looks dangerous (and might be so as well) isn't the right way in my opinion - but that cannot mean we should approve everything and authorize every idiot to proofe himself.

See the difference - and take a stand!
And there are differences - just one example:
If Ray Hunter (sorry Ray for using you as example) gets bitten wouldn't have the same impact on public reputation of venomous keepers as if a unknown, private keeper has a snakebite accident.

Best regards
Peter

In my view, this so called 'self invenomation' is nothing more than dangerous buffoonery that has an obvious negative impact in the public consciousness for all individuals- whether professional or non professional- who study venomous snakes. With regard to the endeavours of Mr. Ray Hunter; here's a link to a discussion on a site that Mr. Hunter is a member of: http://www.venomdoc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3650&start=0 . One will note that Mr. Hunter- perhaps wisely- has so far declined to comment in that discussion. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

I met Karl Peterson in 1985 when I attended the Reptile Symposium in San Diego, and at the time, Karl was employed by the Dallas/Fort Worth Zoo as a keeper. I don't know if he's currently employed by the same zoo-or another, but I'd be interested in learning if he has any kind of qualified, medical adviser working with him, or he has developed his program entirely by himself.

I'm not a scientist and I have no medical training, in other words, I have no qualifications to be self administering toxic compounds or to judge those who do. I sincerely hope Mr. Peterson knows what he's doing.

Kelly Chabak wrote:

Well, they don't make Quaaludes anymore. This is just one theory.

No Nikki Sixx Ate them all LOL

I knew a guy about 25 years ago that self-envenomated - but he did it because his collection was illegal and he didnt want to get busted by taking a trip to the hospital for a exotic or non-local bite. I watched him free handle a couple of C. molossus and take a few bites from them, an hour later he barely had any swelling.
As far as the guy in the video goes, I think his explanation for why he is doing it would go a lot farther if he were doing it with species that do not have any antivenin available., oe even ones that are normally deadly - is there really a pressing need to innoculate oneself from the effects of a klauberi bite? Its not like there is a shortage of CroFab polyvalent...

Under medically controlled situations you can get immunized to snakevenoms, as can you get desensitized to anaphylactic allergy.
but to let snakes bite you and not know the amount of venom injected each time, is like playing russian roulette!

Daniel Quinton wrote:

I knew a guy about 25 years ago that self-envenomated - but he did it because his collection was illegal and he didnt want to get busted by taking a trip to the hospital for a exotic or non-local bite. I watched him free handle a couple of C. molossus and take a few bites from them, an hour later he barely had any swelling.

Not wanting to get caught -> self-immunizing -> free-handling -> getting bitten.

Now that's just batshit, burning stupidity.