herpetoculture quo vadis?

out of a german add board:
1,1 Atrox NZ 09 doppel Het. Albino /Melanistisch Paar 180 €

Crotalus atrox double heterozygous for "albino" (amelanistic) and melanistic.
What a rubbish!

Just another proof that too many people having no idea about genetics and about what's senseless or not are enforcing the "morph"-bussiness.
or does the "double" mean that both of'em are heterozygous for amelanistic? pretty confusing.
The problem will be that a whole bunch of newcomers will believe/copy that and confusion or incorrect knowledge will increase more and more....

Peter

I have not seen the add, but from what you say, at best, they were produced by an amel (albino) and a melanistic, making the offspring heterozygous for both traits. But maybe, one parent is het for amel and the other is het for melanistic, then the offspring are only possibly het for the traits.

Randy

If both parent were a homozgous animals than the offspring would be heterozygous for both traits. Amelanistic as Albino and Melanistic are well known colour mutations in many snake species. There is a confusion only when mutations are not correctly defined. It's the first ime I hear of melanistic C.Atrox also. Double het is used for animals that carry two different mutations, there are some triple hets known with ball pythons and boas producing triple simple recessive animals that are are homozygous. only one parent has to be homozygous for offspring to have the same gene being either one, two or three colour mutation.

Regards, BKK

Maybe in theory
I have never seen offspring with both defects and it makes no sence ( because normally both defects are located on same loci , I think. ( when we speak of "normal" amelanistic traits )

If you have a look at other traits like amelanisitc, anerythristic or axanthic, double or tripple hets are quite common...

I know there are some very cool lines out there in regards to atrox. In the same litter, I have seen albinos, melanistic, and also axanthic. Not too mention other colors as well such as pink(but do not know what the "morph" would be called).

All of the morphs within a litter and the lineage has prompted me to ask a lot of questions and inquiries to such.

In short, my interpretation of what I was told by the breeders is to not look a gift horse in the mouth... meaning that nobody has a true answer to it and are just extremely pleased to have it. The morphs created seemed to go against all known breeding laws with them. But, the line does breed true to the various morphs such as albino, melanistic, axanthic, etc. and has been proved out as such.

The melanistics and especially the axanthics are very pricey, and not always so easy to come by. They are very gorgeous to say the least! And the albinos het for melanistic or axanthic fetch a pretty dollar as well.

I have been wanting to get my hands on some for some time but have yet to acquire any.

All calculations for genetic composition are theoretical. I like mutations and keep some of them. Mostly ball pythons. There are some explanations for example for albinism, leucism, piebaldism and some others but the sources are scarce. Many of this mutations have commercial names that have nothing to doo with true genetic definition. The only information available is type of mutation (recessive, dominant or complete dominant)if it's proven and what info is passed foreward (colour or pattern or both). There are some exceptions that are a mistery like original 'Platinum' ball python who has a secret gene, a form of Hypo mutation but not Hypo? and with Phantom. Phantom is a co.dom. mutation and also het leucistic (a form of pseudoalbinism, not true leucistic) makes leucistics with some others like Butter and Lesser Platinum and Russo Het but is destinctivly different when crossed with Mojave also het leucistic or in superform. Some mutations can be also recessive or dominant depending on the lineage like Desert Ghost. There are also randomly occured mutations and skin defects. Given the number of mutations with snakes there will probably never be enough explonation for all of them. First mutations were mostly albinos no matter what the species. Peter once found a source about this that is really interesting. I have some materials on reptile genetic and also basic genetic explonations. If anyone is interested I can post it.

Best regards, BKK

this topic is very intrested and i would like to share some of my knowledge with you as i study animal engineering here in my country and we mainly study genetics as our main goal is to improve productive animal's charateristics by selective breeding,in vivo and many other methods.

generally organisms as models carry a genetic id in their cells.mutation is a key for the life to find a way,to adjust and reproduct.every mutation has either a negative or a positive effect in an organism.for instance albinism in snakes is a negative effect for the speciment and the local population.as the snake losses camuflage becomes volnurable.
the positive effect of mutations is that within the ages this speciment will improve its camouflage and finally pass over the evolutioning predators in local enviroment as well as area changes.
bare in mind that mutations in pattern like the striped form that are found in nature in large numbers in speciments,may not have bad effects in populations.or are more likely to become more common in the future as nature's parameters change.


until now i have never found an animal like reptiles that can produce too many genetic combinations or morphs.the answer in my opinion is that reptiles have so many different species------->many different colour combinations-------------->many pattern shapes and forms----------->many different characteristics------>easy to moderate propagation------->big reproductive rate------>keeping in large numbers and from anyone------->huge genetic soup!

dont forget that many snakes can easily tolerate genetic traits and mutations in their life.

as for naming co dominant mutations tiger or sunfire super tiger or pastel there is an explanation.albinism for instance is known how works how is inharited because has effects in humans and is studied in medicine and scientists have found it as has an effect in health.co dominancy in humas has an effect in blood type and hair iharetance that have no connections to health problems.

in breeding stocks and animal production there are also terms like striped piebalds etc.but they do not carry this potential of morph development as extreme patterns and morphs in other animals have no value.do you imagine a paradox albino limousin holstein giving milk in a farm?
or a super striped albino cat hunting a mouse?

please do not forget the hardy weinberg principal.i strongly believe in this for blood strains and a huge potential for new basic morphs produced by mutations in our homes.

please any opinions would be accepted with my best wishes.

cheers Marios.

Well Marios, you selected a very interesting subject to study. Now days this is easier, in my time genetics was described totaly different.
You are correct. There are consequences either good or bad for all mutations and humans are those who carry mutations in higher numbers. That is why you can not cross human siblings because they are definetly defected.
There are also consequences in line breeding, I know a case of Albino Ball pythons (RDR Reptiles) that after constant line breeding hached blind, no eyes at all and with shorter lower jaw. This kind of snake can survive in captivity but has little chance in the wild. And there are defects also in Caramel Albino Ball pythons. They develop kinks on the spine and as I know there are no exceptions, everyone breeding this morph eventually came across a ''kinked caramel''.
Usually there is more negative effects than positive. I see also with my Scaleless Bitis Arietans that it has a lot of trouble with movement and require damp enviroment because they faster loose moist than snakes with scales and they have trouble sheding. Brightly coloured mutations on the other hand have much trouble finding camuflage but like Marios said it's easier when they grow up.

Best regards, BKK

this is why over breeding the species in a small population to improve characteristics and make combos there is a high chance for mutations to finally result in serious health issues for the animal or create lethal genes.after some years this will result in an inbreeding like situation.you are right in every point of view.

it is so shame that competivity pushes breeders again and again.a 25 year project of improving blood strains in basis should had no or less complications in the offsprings and create much stronger strains.improving a line would may result in an elimination of health impacts.

Bostjan Kraner wrote:

I see also with my Scaleless Bitis Arietans that it has a lot of trouble with movement and require damp enviroment because they faster loose moist than snakes with scales and they have trouble sheding.

This I did not know, Bostjan.
In France, we only know scaleless corn snakes for now, and the absence of the inconveniences you describe is certainly due to the mild temperatures those require, compared to the Bitis gender.
How do you explain their trouble moving properly?

Nice information about genes here, anyway. Thanks for making it rather clear for this non-scientist mind of mine. : )

scales act like feet that grasp and take advantage of earth's abnormalities a scaleless snake losses its feet.
also act like armor. having no scales would be uncomfortable in locomotion.

can't think another reason.

'Feels rather logical, Marius, thanks.^^

That 'scale use' for motion must depend on species though, as colubrids do not seem to be embarrassed by the loss of theirs, and still move properly (for all those I've seen so far).

Mutation is a touchy subject. To be honest, I definitely do not enjoy any of them, even if I like to understand how it comes up and works.

It feels that, beyond the 'artificial' side to it I do not appreciate, there is always at the end of the day something going wrong about the animal's health.

I know my view is a little global here and I do not wish to (re?)initiate a debate, not forgetting that a lot of health potential consequences depend on the way you cope with consanguinity . Still...if feels like these animals are deprived of something, kind of weaker/more fragile in a way... : )

Hello Davina,

let a scaleless and a scaled cornsnake climb up a tree vertically, look at the action of the snake´s ventral scales and you´ll see the difference. This is no problem at all for a scaled one as long as the bark is a little bit rough.
In this case, apart from other disadvantages, being able to move in a terrarium under protected conditions (shelter, feeding, controlled humidity,...) or in nature can mean the difference between survival and death without passing genes to further generations.

Quote :

That 'scale use' for motion must depend on species though, as colubrids do not seem to be embarrassed by the loss of theirs, and still move properly (for all those I've seen so far).

That might be right to some degree, additionally i have to remember that a caterpillar-like forward locomotion is very well defined in large Bitis species like Bitis arietans - and they need scales to do that in an efficient way.....
Best regards
Peter

This is all interesting and relevant. Thanks for the answers. : )