Important decisions in Austria

Chris Newman wrote:

Animals do not have ‘rights’ as in the context of humans, with rights comes reasonability, animals do no share responsibilities as humans do. Animals do not have rights, but we humans have an obligation to them or as I prefer - a duty of care. I was luck to be brought up in a household with all kinds of animals, I have 4 children, all boys, they have been brought up with animals and have a deep passion for animals and their welfare, and for the wider environment. What scare’s me are the children who never have contact with animals. My kids, I say kids my eldest is now 23, but they bring their friends home who have never kept or interacted with animals, many exhibit little or no compassion for the natural world. If we divorce humanity for interacting with animals the consequences would be disastrous.

Returning to the issue in hand, what is driving this? Concern for the welfare of the animals or animal rights? Are we suggesting that events were hobbyist meet and exchange, buy and sell animals is a hot bed of animal suffering, I don’t think so. Are we suggesting that reptiles cannot be kept in captivity without suffering, again I would suggest not. Is the keeping of venomous reptiles by hobbyist in Austria threatening the safety of the general public? I don’t know the answer to that one but I am not aware that there has been an issue with members of the public being bitted by venomous snakes kept by hobbyist!

So what is driving this, concerns for animal welfare, or an animal rights agenda. I would respectfully suggest the latter!

Please note, Mr. Newman, that no where in this discussion have I said that animals have rights. I agree that the quality of our Humanity would be lessened if we were prevented from interacting with the animals that share our World. With regard to the more pertinent question as to whether or not a private collection of venomous snakes poses a danger or threat to the general public, I would ask you to consider the following scenario... A private citizen with an interest in firearms is discovered dead in his home from a gun shot wound. It was subsequently determined that the individual had 89 loaded handguns in his possession. The cause of the individual's death is clear. So that leaves the manner in which the individual met his demise as the most relevant question to ask. It seems unlikely that one of the guns would somehow leap out of its storage area, point and aim itself at its owner and fire all by itself, so one could deduce that the sequence of events that led to the individual's death to be that the individual himself was handling the gun in a careless or foolhardy or unnecessary manner(he may have been trying to photograph his gun, for example) and inadvertently shot himself to death. So... the most obvious question that the people we entrust to guard our public safety will ask is: Who was this individual? Why was it necessary for this or any private citizen to have 89 loaded handguns in his possession at his residence? What specific firearm training, experience, skills and qualifications did this individual have? What, if any, standard of safety and security was in place? What appropriate measures could be taken to prevent such an occurence from happening again? Now consider this same scenario with venomous snakes instead of firearms and I believe that a reasonable person would understand the concerns that the people we entrust to guard our public safety have with regard to the private ownership and possession of venomous snakes... or large constricting snakes or giant monitor lizards or Crocodilians and/or firearms, high explosives, volatile chemical agents, biological cultures of Anthrax/ Ebola, etc., etc. and so on. As to the point you raised about how your children's lives were enriched and enlightened by the exposure to animals and how they learned empathy and awareness for animals and the environment, let me ask you this... If you had a choice, would you expose your children to snakes that were kept in captivity in a 'rack' system of tiny, barren and sterilized plastic containers or would you prefer to show your children snakes that were kept in larger more naturalistic cages that at least made an attempt to replicate the snake's natural environment? If you had a choice, would you expose your children to a captive bred 'Cinnamon Sunglow Sulphan' snake that was so genetically damaged through inbreeding that it could hardly move its head or body normally or would you prefer to show your children a real snake typical and more representative of what one might find in the wild? In my view, it is far better for the community of responsible venomous snake keepers to ask themselves these questions rather than have the folks who are in a position to create and implement ever more punative restrictions and regulations on the private ownership of venomous snakes and other reptiles to have to ask these questions. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Jon, excellent article what i take from what you print is you may be "over feeling it" from your great passion for the pure science of herpetology.

Yet this is a world and it takes all types to create one including politicians and agendaists who are just as passionate to keep you from doing what we do.

It seems more a civil human rights issue than a moral one .

Obs. Bringing up issues of danger is playing in to the hands of dramatics, simply because anytime there are reptiles involved , drama is not far away.

eg. A) Entire building burns down because elderly woman falls asleep with cigarette in hand and burns bed which in turn leads to this crisis, ten people dead, twelve hurt and millions in property damage caused , this elderly woman was a retired Austrian Diplomat for the state dept.

eg. B) Escaped pet Boa constrictor is found in the kitchen of home in Austria.

This last more" news worthy" example caused the most panic from the drama angle.

The mutant anerythristic, amelanistic, scaleless, 100% het for garlic breath issue is a double-edged sword. I personally dislike these intensely, and agree with Jon D on just about everything he said.

Annyhow, from the PR point of view, the popularity of these freaks does have the advantage of removing a substantial section herpetoculture from the accusation of plundering wild populations..... it's hard for activitsts to bang on about illegal trade in wild animals while standing next to a rack of albino ghost spider jungle boathons.

As an aside, probably the freakiest teratological biological specimen I have ever seen was a perfectly normal English bulldog skull.....

" Money makes the world go round ".....

At the turn of the 20th century, Ch. Rodney Stone became the first Bulldog to command a price of $5000 when he was bought by controversial Irish-American political figure Richard Croker.
[edit].....Point in case W.W.

Jon Davidson wrote:

Chris Newman wrote:

Animals do not have ‘rights’ as in the context of humans, with rights comes reasonability, animals do no share responsibilities as humans do. Animals do not have rights, but we humans have an obligation to them or as I prefer - a duty of care. I was luck to be brought up in a household with all kinds of animals, I have 4 children, all boys, they have been brought up with animals and have a deep passion for animals and their welfare, and for the wider environment. What scare’s me are the children who never have contact with animals. My kids, I say kids my eldest is now 23, but they bring their friends home who have never kept or interacted with animals, many exhibit little or no compassion for the natural world. If we divorce humanity for interacting with animals the consequences would be disastrous.

Returning to the issue in hand, what is driving this? Concern for the welfare of the animals or animal rights? Are we suggesting that events were hobbyist meet and exchange, buy and sell animals is a hot bed of animal suffering, I don’t think so. Are we suggesting that reptiles cannot be kept in captivity without suffering, again I would suggest not. Is the keeping of venomous reptiles by hobbyist in Austria threatening the safety of the general public? I don’t know the answer to that one but I am not aware that there has been an issue with members of the public being bitted by venomous snakes kept by hobbyist!

So what is driving this, concerns for animal welfare, or an animal rights agenda. I would respectfully suggest the latter!

Please note, Mr. Newman, that no where in this discussion have I said that animals have rights. I agree that the quality of our Humanity would be lessened if we were prevented from interacting with the animals that share our World. With regard to the more pertinent question as to whether or not a private collection of venomous snakes poses a danger or threat to the general public, I would ask you to consider the following scenario... A private citizen with an interest in firearms is discovered dead in his home from a gun shot wound. It was subsequently determined that the individual had 89 loaded handguns in his possession. The cause of the individual's death is clear. So that leaves the manner in which the individual met his demise as the most relevant question to ask. It seems unlikely that one of the guns would somehow leap out of its storage area, point and aim itself at its owner and fire all by itself, so one could deduce that the sequence of events that led to the individual's death to be that the individual himself was handling the gun in a careless or foolhardy or unnecessary manner(he may have been trying to photograph his gun, for example) and inadvertently shot himself to death. So... the most obvious question that the people we entrust to guard our public safety will ask is: Who was this individual? Why was it necessary for this or any private citizen to have 89 loaded handguns in his possession at his residence? What specific firearm training, experience, skills and qualifications did this individual have? What, if any, standard of safety and security was in place? What appropriate measures could be taken to prevent such an occurence from happening again? Now consider this same scenario with venomous snakes instead of firearms and I believe that a reasonable person would understand the concerns that the people we entrust to guard our public safety have with regard to the private ownership and possession of venomous snakes... or large constricting snakes or giant monitor lizards or Crocodilians and/or firearms, high explosives, volatile chemical agents, biological cultures of Anthrax/ Ebola, etc., etc. and so on. As to the point you raised about how your children's lives were enriched and enlightened by the exposure to animals and how they learned empathy and awareness for animals and the environment, let me ask you this... If you had a choice, would you expose your children to snakes that were kept in captivity in a 'rack' system of tiny, barren and sterilized plastic containers or would you prefer to show your children snakes that were kept in larger more naturalistic cages that at least made an attempt to replicate the snake's natural environment? If you had a choice, would you expose your children to a captive bred 'Cinnamon Sunglow Sulphan' snake that was so genetically damaged through inbreeding that it could hardly move its head or body normally or would you prefer to show your children a real snake typical and more representative of what one might find in the wild? In my view, it is far better for the community of responsible venomous snake keepers to ask themselves these questions rather than have the folks who are in a position to create and implement ever more punative restrictions and regulations on the private ownership of venomous snakes and other reptiles to have to ask these questions. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

I think comparing a venomous snake kept by a private keeper and someone keeping a firearm is rather a disingenuous comparison. Agreed both can be lethal, but that is where the comparison ends! Snakes can be lethal, so can guns, so can cars, so can dogs, fast food and alcohol!

This tread is about legislation that has been passed in Austria, which from the information available has outlawed the keeping of venomous snakes, it’s nothing to do with the keeping and breeding of colour mutations, something that I am personally disappointed by. The point is yesterday someone in Austria keeping, let’s say Atheris squamigera was a law abiding citizen, today they are a criminal – how do you justify that?

This legislation has absolutely nothing what so ever about animals welfare, it is purely driven by an animal rights agenda, and I find it very curious that you appears to be supporting this!

Chris Newman wrote:

I think comparing a venomous snake kept by a private keeper and someone keeping a firearm is rather a disingenuous comparison. Agreed both can be lethal, but that is where the comparison ends! Snakes can be lethal, so can guns, so can cars, so can dogs, fast food and alcohol!

This tread is about legislation that has been passed in Austria, which from the information available has outlawed the keeping of venomous snakes, it’s nothing to do with the keeping and breeding of colour mutations, something that I am personally disappointed by. The point is yesterday someone in Austria keeping, let’s say Atheris squamigera was a law abiding citizen, today they are a criminal – how do you justify that?

This legislation has absolutely nothing what so ever about animals welfare, it is purely driven by an animal rights agenda, and I find it very curious that you appears to be supporting this!

I'll let the readers decide which comparison in this discussion is disingenuous; The analogy between a venomous snake and a loaded handgun or a venomous snake and fast food or an alcoholic beverage... Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Quote :

We don't know it, Wolfgang, but i fear there won't be exceptions - at least not in the venomous section.
Maybe they will crawl back in the giant snakes section, at this time it's planned to prohibit the Boidae family generally - that will declare some ten thousands Ball Pythons as illegal.....
What they did yesterday is only the decision to create these new rules.
best regards
Peter

* The way i understand this statement is that this bylaw or bill has not been approved to date and passed by the Austrian form of a congress, if this is so then no one is a criminal yet and more or less still only a threat.

Mr. Montejo,
I had to edit your post, to make more clear what is cited from others and what belongs to your own statement.
It's very easy:
Click the "quote"-button
Copy and paste what you want to cite
Click the "quote"-button again

Thank you
Peter

Albert J. Montejo wrote:

Quote :

We don't know it, Wolfgang, but i fear there won't be exceptions - at least not in the venomous section.
Maybe they will crawl back in the giant snakes section, at this time it's planned to prohibit the Boidae family generally - that will declare some ten thousands Ball Pythons as illegal.....
What they did yesterday is only the decision to create these new rules.
best regards
Peter

* The way i understand this statement is that this bylaw or bill has not been approved to date and passed by the Austrian form of a congress, if this is so then no one is a criminal yet and more or less still only a threat.

Mr. Montejo,
I had to edit your post, to make more clear what is cited from others and what belongs to your own statement.
It's very easy:
Click the "quote"-button
Copy and paste what you want to cite
Click the "quote"-button again

Thank you
Peter

Having looked into this a little further you are indeed correct, this was a vote on proposals to prohibit these activities, not as originally thought actual legislation. However, the obvious concern is now the as the vote was unanimous that legislation enacting these proposal will be forthcoming. Hopefully keepers in Austria will oppose such legislation as it clearly has nothing what so ever to do with concerns over welfare of animals.

What I expressed in my first post also was: This is not law yet. It is a proposal to the minister of health issues to create a law with that contents and bring it to parliament for voting. It´s bad enough but not a catastrophy.
One important point is: Safety in keeping of potentially dangerous animals is NOT a matter of the law for animal welfare which is federal law. It is included in safety legislation of the provinces of Austria which also meant that it is not touched by this bill. Up to now the proivinces fought for any little detail that should be taken from their responsibility, they will do so even more for this big issue. According to these laws of the 9 Austrian provinces, keeping venomous snakes is under 9 mostly differing regulations. In 2 it is prohibited for many years already, one has no restrictions at all, the others have differing standards but one can get a permit under certain conditions.
We´ll see what and whether anything will be and we´ll be active. There´s a number of capable people among the reptile-enthusiasts in Austria and we are ready to act in a proper way.
We´ll keep our heads up.

Cheers,
Rainer

Rainer

I think from the reaction on this forum, you can gather that you have a lot of support. Hopefully common sense will prevail. Just disappointing that you have to defend your position in the first place.

Simon

I didn't see that coming so quick and hard.

It is possible to stop the official trade with these animals, but every non-zoo-keeper should give all the animals he actually keeps away ???

Well, now everyone has a Problem who was honest and registrated his snakes. Now they know you have them.......what is the benefit of being honest? They'll take your snakes away which is your hobby, you invested time, money and heart for that.

Best regards
Markus

Markus,
i deleted 3 words out of your posting.
Flaming politicians cannot be an acceptable way to save as much as possible from our rights and our hobby.
It could happen to us that they will argue:"see here, these people want to keep deadly venomous animals, but they do not fulfill the important personal requirements, because they cannot control themselves."
Thank you!
regards
Peter

The most prominent snake-keeping people in Austria should contact USARK, and ask them how to go about fighting for your rights. Maybe it is too late, maybe not. Can't hurt to try. http://www.usark.org/contact.php

I believe there should be a permit system in every State in the USA, like we have here in Florida. At least then, the people willing to deal with the cost and paperwork will more than likely take proper care of their animals, as they can come inspect your animals 24/7, without warning. Those people who do have a license, will not sell to people without a license, for fear of losing their own license. Also, I wouldn't have to worry about someone not having the knowledge to properly care for venomous snakes. They would be licensed by their State. Illegal keeping would still be there, underground, but I believe less of them, when you have a permit system.

The story was on TV few day ago.
Its in German and go to the right side and click to Exotenhandel (05:41)
http://tvthek.orf.at/programs/1264-Hohes-Haus/episodes/3071227-Hohes-Haus

Dear all,

I want to inform you that the ÖVVÖ has made the letter available (German):

http://www.oevvoe.org/downloads/ministerbrief.pdf

Kind regards

Martin

I invite everybody on FB to join this support group. Join, share, comment and update please.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/274025092637105/

Best regards, BKK

hi to all,there are news from austria? the law is in force? i've read that the wien show is on line...I thinks that the ban was not in force..

Hello Alessandro,

there is no new law about keeping of "dangerous reptiles" in Austria. Read what I posted in this thread on 23/10/2011 - it´s clear now, no changes of these laws and regulations are planned up to now and in the close future.

Best regards,
Rainer

Rainer Fesser wrote:

Hello Alessandro,

there is no new law about keeping of "dangerous reptiles" in Austria. Read what I posted in this thread on 23/10/2011 - it´s clear now, no changes of these laws and regulations are planned up to now and in the close future.

Best regards,
Rainer

oh thanks Rainer,I didn't read what you posted,now it's clear for me too!

Hello Alessandro,

I did not want to ask you why you did not read my former post. When I posted it, most of it was expectation for the future with much probability it would come like that. Now we know that what I wrote at that time has (fortunately) become fact.

Ciao,
Rainer

Rainer Fesser wrote:

I did not want to ask you why you did not read my former post.

hi Rainer,I don' know,I've read much of the topic,but not all,however thanks for the answers,now it's clear!