First venomous

I know this topic has already been beaten into the ground but I have been thinking about a Aspidelaps spp. as my first "hot". I find them very fascinating snakes from what ive read I have also considered Elapsoidea spp. as well but im up for any information or recommendation's.

It would all depend on how much experience you have with nonvenomous. How long have you been keeping snakes? What species have you kept? Aspidelaps are a pretty forgiving species, but that's not to say that they're a 'safe' venomous snake. My reccommendation is that you do every bit of research you can about their venom, medical treatment, case histories of bite victims etc.

Also, I see you live in the US. You should check your health insurance, homeowners insurance etc to make sure that you'll be covered in case of a bite.

Remember that Aspidelaps are escape artists, and since they're so small and fossorial, if one gets out and you don't have a good venomous room you'll never find it again... and open yourself up to legal liability and all kinds of problems if it ends up anywhere you didn't intend it. There is also no antivenin for Aspidelaps. It's thought that there may be some cross-reactivity with other African elapids but if you do get bitten, and you find a doctor who has experience in snakebite, AND you get your hands on some Naja antivenin, you may not find a doctor who will administer it to you for malpractice liability concerns.

Aspidelaps like to strike with their mouths closed. Either way they put on a pretty good show. They are little cobras with big cobra attitudes, but they shouldn't be underestimated.

Have you thought about keeping something venomous that's native to the US? Maybe a copperhead? At least that way if it escapes into the wild it won't be invasive, and if you're bitten you'll have antivenin around and doctors who know a bit more about what they're doing.

That I have been doing not much on their venom really other then its painful from what ive been reading. Fatalities unconfirmed children fatalities but nothing concrete in that area so its all rather jumbled to me. As for the venom post-synaptic neurotoxins from what I've been reading and not highly potent in nature still dangerous though. To me nothing venomous is safe to me there is safer but never really safe as any venomous snake is capable of causing some harm. How long have I been around snake's all my life in some form or other my recent experience was with a southern black racer which I released. Due to the fact it made a poor captive and wasn't very tractable in captivity and it wasn't going to last long if I kept it. With regards to copperheads I don't know why but IM just not to keen on getting one. Other nonvenomous include bull snakes and some other burrowing species that I've had over the years. As for the attitude I wouldn't expect anything less from a Naja relative

Aspidelaps sp. do have a dangerous venom for sure. It's a Naja pallida like venom (Fry per. comm.), but it is only delivered in smaller quantities. I have experience with quite a few specimens of different species of Aspidelaps and Elapsoidae. In my opinion Aspidelaps lubricus lubricus are the easiest when it comes to handling. But they slide from the hook very easy, so that's why I often use two small Midwest hooks. Both lubricus ssp. are not difficult feeders. Newborns start easily on chickenlegs in case they are to small to take babymice or when they refuse babymice. Also the size of Aspidelaps lubricus lubricus is a bit more 'safe' as the larger ssp. cowlesi.

Most Elapsoidae species that thrive in captivity get larger and can be more difficult to start feeding (I have forcefed a baby sundevallii for almost a year). They are also a bit more difficult in handling (quick and 'strange' defensive movements like Micrucurus).

Further it depends on your experience with non-venomous snakes like Luke already wrote. You can already gain experience with non-venomous snakes in handling with hooks. Also tubing is good to learn before you get your first venomous snake.

Ofcourse a safe cage is a must.



Gr,
Harold

Yep I have been reading about Elapidae in general and while their venom isn't the strongest it could. It can certainly put a hurting on you for sure and from what ive read its painful safe caging is a must for me. I respect what venomous snakes can do for sure after seeing some nasty Puff Adder bites and Saw-scaled viper bites. I used to think Naja couldn't cause much tissue damage then I read a paper online about Naja arta bites and that was pretty rough stuff. But to me it seem's there really is no good first "hot" there is safer but not safest in terms of a "hot" ive heard many say copperhead or a rear-fanged species. But it seem's to me there is no good first venomous there is only less venomous but still venomous. A guy in the states was actually killed by a copperhead due to anaphylactic shock so that's something I always remember. So these elapids have venom on par with the red-spitter thats something to be mindful of thank you for the information I did wonder how coral snakes and African garters defend themselves random and crazy movements is certainly a good defense.

at the moment i have Trimeresurus trigonocephalus - recommend that females in a quiet, big and nice, smooth, venom not strong;), If you live in America start with small Crotalus;)Sistrurus;) - on site have antivenom

cheers

I love my T. trigonocephalus, but I find that she gets MUCH more apt to strike after dark. T. trigonocephalus is a great species, very beautiful and easy to manage, but don't underestimate those huge fangs, long and lightning fast strike range.

Joel, if you want to get an Aspidelpas ssp I wouldn't say that you're making a big mistake. They're a great species, and certainly a lot less dangerous than any other elapid. I also think that you should strongly consider a small native venomous species like a pygmy or copperhead, perhaps even a cottonmouth. At least that way you'll have antivenin and doctors experienced with those species in case of a mishap.

You seem to be on the right track with your line of questioning and research. You're certaionly doing things a lot better than lots of other people who want a first venomous, haven't done any research and think they know it all.

I'm sure whatever species you choose you'll do fine with as long as you know your own limitations and are willing to build your experience slowly.

in that case what do you suggest? for now we do not recommend him all the species ps and all species pitvipers of Asia are active at night;) this is not problem;)

I didn't suggest that he stays away from Aspidelaps. I said they're a good species, but that perhaps small native venomous would be a better first choice.

I love my Trimeresurus too

Luke Halstead wrote:

I love my T. trigonocephalus, but I find that she gets MUCH more apt to strike after dark. T. trigonocephalus is a great species, very beautiful and easy to manage, but don't underestimate those huge fangs, long and lightning fast strike range.

Joel, if you want to get an Aspidelpas ssp I wouldn't say that you're making a big mistake. They're a great species, and certainly a lot less dangerous than any other elapid. I also think that you should strongly consider a small native venomous species like a pygmy or copperhead, perhaps even a cottonmouth. At least that way you'll have antivenin and doctors experienced with those species in case of a mishap.

You seem to be on the right track with your line of questioning and research. You're certaionly doing things a lot better than lots of other who want a first venomous, haven't done any research and think they know it all.

I'm sure whatever species you choose you'll do fine with as long as you know your own limitations and are willing to build your experience slowly.

Im looking to build my experience slowly as ive seen what rushing into something can do as people have died due to getting in over their heads. Aspidelpas ssp I just like for some reason I guess its the fact they are a Naja relative and not as toxic N.nivea,N.haje,N.arta or N.sumatrana but they still put on a show as you said. Ive read lot's and lot's and it seem's there is no good first venomous just safer one's that are highly unlikely to kill you but could still put the hurt on you. I have read reports about them supposedly killing children but I haven't found anything concrete on that and those deaths maybe attributed to other highly venomous African elapids. However it still a elapid to be cautious around given its venom is still a post-synaptic neurotoxin maybe weaker then the ladder but still dangerous. I don't know everything but I learn a lot from reading the posts on here also I have read bite reports and those are a real reality check.

Like I said, you sound like you've got a good head on your shoulders and I think you'll do just fine, which ever species you choose for your first venomous.

Just remember that Aspidelaps venom isn't necessarily weaker than other elapids, there's just less of it. I know that there are no documented deaths in adults, but you wouldn't want to be the first! You're right though, statistically you're probably better off with something like Aspidelaps spp if you want something that is less likely to kill you.

You're definitely preparing yourself much better than others I've seen getting into venomous snkae keeping, so just keep asking questions and learning and you'll do just fine!

Also, if you're worried about venom potentcy, I've read that the worst bites are from A. l. infuscatus. Just something to keep in mind.

I did actually consider some viper species but the venom of most of those even the mildly venomous one's. Cause tissue damage thats what I mostly worry about is the tissue damage most neurotoxic snakes don't do that aside from spitting cobra's which are cytotoxic and some other cobra's. N.arta,N.nivea bites ive seen cause necrosis and tissue damage. At the moment im looking at caging options im looking at vision cages but i'll take recommendations on that as well. Also since its as venomous as Naja pallida it could certainly put someone through a world of hurt even if its not fatal. I also thought about sheild-nose snakes but I can't find much on them venom wise aside from a reported but still really vague fatality.

At the end everybody decides whitch species to start with. I've been asked the same quesation many times. Every venomos snake is dangerous but starting with elapids would not be a good idea. They can be fast and nervous and in the case of Aspidelaps, they are small, but not less dangerous. I'd recomend Agkistrodon Contortrix ssp or Cryptelytrops Albolabris or similar species for start because they are easy to work with and not as dangerous but still deserve respect.

Best regards, BKK

I don't see much point in starting with a venomous snake one is not interested in. Agkistrodon, Cryptelytrops etc. are great snakes, but if the OP has his heart set on elapids, I am not sure that those suggestions are going to really help. Moreover, while keeping one of these will teach the person about keeping small(ish) vipers, that experience is going to be of limited value when he then decides to move on to something like Aspidelaps or other elapids - they are just totally different snakes. Moreover, I don't buy the "Oh my God, it's an elapid" attitude - I learned most of my venomous skills with cobras, and to this day find them much more forgiving than many viperids. If I had made some of my stupid "beginner mistakes" with some of the species I worked with later, then we would be having this discussion via an ouija board.

If Joel wants to keep Aspidelaps as a first venomous, a more important consideration might be how much experience with faster, squirmy snakes he has - Aspidelaps often don't hook well and can move fast, so being able to deal with that eventuality would be the most important consideration. Another would be what handling kit is available. For anything fast and squirmy that does not hook well, I would strongly recommend a pair of Hexarmor gloves - that way, if a snake does end up on the floor, it can simply be pressed against the ground with one gloved hand and picked up and returned to its cage with the other, which will be a lot easier than hooking it.

In terms of venom, published series of A. lubricus lubricus bites generally consisted of relatively mild bites. Moreover, if a bite were to be life-threatening, it would be through neurotoxicity and thus respiratory failure. If this is understood (and this is where agreeing treatment protocols with your health care provider and emergency room staff could be life-saving), then it can be counteracted with mechanical ventilation in the absence of antivenom - much more straightforward than treating a haemorrhaging patient with non-clotting blood without the appropriate antivenom.

Cheers,

WW

You really explained well Mr. Wolfgang. Looking this way it is probaly safer to keep Aspidelaps as a first species. Looking now from my point of view when I got my firs pair and still only cobra that I keep (Naja Naja) I had no real experience and they were already two years old. I kept Death adders before that but they are more viper-like in behaviour. And in the case of serious bite, probably Death Adder bite or Aspidelaps in this case would deal less damage as a Viper bite. Also Hexarmour gloves are good idea for Aspidelaps given on their size. Thinking of geting one pair myself. Well Joel, hoever you decide, wish you much luck in the future keeping your favourite species.

Best regards, BKK

I just like elapids as it where for some reason and the Aspidelaps fascinate me a lot as do most elapids. Naja spp. are my favorite as they are just majestic to me and Naja naja is one of my all time favorites as well as N.nivea. However keeping those is a down the road kind of goal as I want to learn to handle elapids first. With regards to bites a Agkistrodon bite might not kill me but it would likely leave tissue damage and that I don't want. Not that I don't like vipers a few of those I like but the one's I like have pretty toxic venom and bad bites. I do like the Agkistrodon bilineatus taylori but from what ive read on its venom it has lethal hemorrhagic properties. are cool but im not getting those again too lethal and have very dangerous venom in case of B.atrox,B.asper,B. alternatus and others. I do enjoy reading about vipers though As far as Aspidelaps go they gave really cool behavior from what ive reading and are active snakes which is great I think. At the moment im looking for secure caging options as its still venomous even if its not highly so its still dangerous I take their fangs are relatively small.