Ophiophagus bite

pete blake wrote:

' in relation to personal attacks no one , even you should be subjected to personal attacks or the threat of violence'

Lol... I appreciate your sentiment. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

pete blake wrote:

my only point mr davidson is there will always be different opinions on handling and techniques, and your right experience teaches you things, but i dont know why we cant concentrate on what people do well rather than our own personal opinions on there handling, Paul , I , and a number of other maybe have a better understanding of luke as we were friends, surely like you say on the experience of handling venomous snakes that it improves your understanding and opinioons, is this not the same when you actually know people rather than just going on internet articles or pictures. all im saying is theres alot more than those pics that made luke who he was. in relation to personal attacks no one , even you should be subjected to personal attacks or the threat of violence, one should be able to debate a subject such as freehandling or indeed the general handling of kings without bringing in someones character, ones opinions are indeed that and free speech without the threats and abuse should be the core of a democratic society,

i would be interested in knowing after your comments on how you would handle or recommend handling of a 12ft king

Clearly your point of view on Mr. Yeoman's behaviour is biased because he was a friend of yours- Just as my point of view is likely equally bias because I did not know this individual personally. I only became aware of Mr. Yeoman when he burst onto this site with a lot of big talk about 'scientific' contributions and blogs and updates on his web site and other big, exciting news regarding King Cobras... When I saw the photographs of Mr. Yeoman kissing the heads of live cobras, I just had to wonder right out loud.... Is this guy for real...? I'd never heard of him before. And what is going on with all these big cobras that requires them to be taken out of their cages and handled with gloves and hooks and all the idiotic videos of guys like Richard Mastenbroek and his disciples hanging out in someone's living room, maybe having a few beers and handling big live cobras...? What is the purpose of this activity? Also, Please note, Mr. Blake, that free speech is the freedom to ask questions about what we see and hear in the World around us especially if it can have an effect on us. If guys like Mr. Yeoman and Mr. Mastenbroek are going to show up here on this web site- a web site that has a number of long time, experienced and legitimate venomous keepers, than surely these individuals should be prepared to answer a couple reasonable questions- asked politely- as to what and why they are doing what they're doing with their live venomous snakes- and answer those questions without all the vehement and ugly personal attacks the were lauched(for example) in reponse against me and others here on VL for merely questioning the motives of an individual who presents himself like a seedy circus side show 'snake expert. Hopefully the community at large can offer more than this to the new generation coming up behind us. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

yes probably right my opinion on luke is biased as it would be of paul, wolfgang or any other venomous person i have spnt time around, but i would also disagree with them if i or they talked about a handling technique, in relation to your comment of scientific facts i know for a fact luke spent time exchanging data with r whittaker in india and chatting through husbandry information,

you may of never heard of him , that surely doesent make him known or unknown but surely is a reflection only of whether you have heard of him, i have never known of anytime when luke had disciples around drinking beer whilst handling large kings. luke didnt like computers very much so finding these websites wouldnt have come naturally and would have come late in his life, but just because someone finds this website late on doesent disregard their value or comments

this website should be for all who keep and wanna keep venomous snakes and those who are interested, you do have the right to question any handling techniques you have the right to question practises of husbandry and caging but i dont think you have the right to question motives. this is where personal attacks begin and before you say it, yes as i said no one should be subjected to them.

i am still looking forward to your suggested ways of handling large kings, i think most people would agree at some point its neccesssary

pete blake wrote:

yes probably right my opinion on luke is biased as it would be of paul, wolfgang or any other venomous person i have spnt time around, but i would also disagree with them if i or they talked about a handling technique, in relation to your comment of scientific facts i know for a fact luke spent time exchanging data with r whittaker in india and chatting through husbandry information,

you may of never heard of him , that surely doesent make him known or unknown but surely is a reflection only of whether you have heard of him, i have never known of anytime when luke had disciples around drinking beer whilst handling large kings. luke didnt like computers very much so finding these websites wouldnt have come naturally and would have come late in his life, but just because someone finds this website late on doesent disregard their value or comments

this website should be for all who keep and wanna keep venomous snakes and those who are interested, you do have the right to question any handling techniques you have the right to question practises of husbandry and caging but i dont think you have the right to question motives. this is where personal attacks begin and before you say it, yes as i said no one should be subjected to them.

i am still looking forward to your suggested ways of handling large kings, i think most people would agree at some point its neccesssary

I believe that we all have a right and an obligation to question anything that clearly needs to questioned- like a guy who goes around kissing live cobras on the head (Remember...? The World Famous, Death Defying 'Kiss of Death' stunt). That's what we're talking about. By the way, it's not up to me to explain my handling techniques here in this discussion- it's up to individuals such as Mr. Yeoman to explain his. However, considering that Mr. Yeoman is now dearly departed, perhaps it's reasonable to ask the question to Mr. Mastenbroek.... when he has recovered from his bite, of course. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Jon,

Your paragraph is interesting, you claim that bites occur from free handling and yet for the most part it is not the free handling that causes the bite. The bite is caused by complacency.
I have two questions for you. Have you ever worked with elapids over 9 ft? What age were you when you first dealt with a venomous snake?

Peter,

I have not worked with either of those Naja, but I have worked with large, highly strung and fast moving elapids eg Oxyuranus and Pseudonaja. Tailing can be used with these species with sufficient experience. I would be hesitant to go hands on with any Naja from a personal point of view due to my lack of experience with these snakes. re the tongs... I use mine for feeding my Crocodile and large varanids.

Cheers
Scott

Scott Eipper wrote:

'... you claim that bites occur from free handling...'

Where...? Show me. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Jon Davidson wrote:

Scott Eipper wrote:

Hi Jon,

First off, I will start by saying that I have a right to an opinion much like you do and everyone else here.

I have no experience with Ophiophagus at all. I am not going to comment on them specifically but I do have some experience working with large mobile elapids.

There are almost two types of freehandling if you will. One type allows for complete unrestrained movement of venomous snakes, allowing the snake to come well into "range" if you will. The second is one of where by movement of the midbody the snake is effectively tailed in an attempt to keep the snake from coming into 'range'. The second method certainly has a place as a legitimate handling method and to the untrained eye it can appear dangerous, however if the person doing it is competent, knows that individual snake and the species well, the risk can be minimised to a point. Granted for the most part many private keepers would not need to part take in such an activity if they use items such as shift/trap boxes etc.

As for the bites sustained by both Richard and Mr Yeomans unless you were there, how do you know details surrounding the bite? Are you speculating as to how and why, or making an assumption based on what has been spoken on an internet forum. I honestly doubt the actions of two keepers in a different continent to you will have far reaching effects in Canada, but then again I might be wrong. I hazard to guess you would have a coronary if you knew what happened in Australia!

I know many freehandlers, I was one myself for years. Like many I have sustained bites from venomous snakes. However I have never been bitten while handling a snake, each time was due to flat out laziness on my part due to complacency. Bites sustained by just about all of the keepers I know are from complacent behavior, not handling methods.

Barely legal teenager.....well many people under 18 keep venomous snakes, many of the members of this board I guess were working with venomous snakes prior to that magical age of 18. Just like you, Mr Haining can have an opinion and is welcome to voice it.
From your avatar photo you appear to be quite old in comparison to me (32), should I assume that you are senile and struggle with memory loss due to your age?....Of course not, that would be stupid and to say it publicly could be deemed offensive. The point I am making here is that an internet assumption can be incorrect, surely a call to emergency services based on such a fact would be a ludicrous as my statement above.
We can only be judged by others from our contributions and our reputation. We are best remembered from our latest contribution, why not make it a positive one.

Cheers,
Scott Eipper

Your observation that everyone has a right to their opinion is correct. However, some opinions, such as ones based on many years experience- or in this case a few decades of direct experience, study and observation- are clearly worth more than than the silly musings of an adolescent with an obvious sense that he's entitled to participate in discussions even though he has absolutely no experience at all(according to what he's told us)in this particular area. This internet entity continues to offer his 'opinion' about things that he knows nothing about(again, according to the teenager himself). This adolescent 'opinion' is based solely(according to what he's told us ) on what he's read on this web site. So, Yes, I think that it may be appropriate to contact the local authorities in this case just as I think that it would be appropriate to contact the authorities if an adolescent teenager was spending hours upon hours on a web site devoted to firearms and target shooting( for example) and wanted information on how to handle firearms( or high explosives or dangerous biological cultures, etc., etc.,...)over the internet. So... again, I would suggest that the adolescent entity simply remain silent in this discussion so that they may be able to learn something- as they have repeatedly asserted they wish to do. Please note further that your descriptions of freehandling techniques- however fascinating to teenage internet 'wannabes'- are unnecessary- certainly to me and the many other long time experiened keepers on VL. Rest assured that the legitimate experienced keepers are well aware of the issue of freehandling live venomous snakes and more importantly, the negative consequenses and reprecussions when an 'accident' enevitably occurrs- and that's what this discussion should be about. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Last paragraph. Rest assured etc... I maintain the view that complacency results in far more bites than free handling and that to freehandle does not mean it is inevitable to be bitten. Can you please answer my other two questions.
Regards
Scott

Guys lets just put things into perspective for a moment.

I sometimes make the flippant comment that venomous snakes are only dangerous if they bite you... and that the skill is in not getting bit (Ok I know spitting cobras can cause damage but you'd be wearing eye protection of course wouldn't you?). I've been working exclusively with venomous snakes for the last 20 years for a venom research unit. It would be fair to say that there are very few people around the world who put in the hours working with venomous snakes as I do..... there is certainly no one in the UK that comes close. I have been in intensive care a couple of times (last bite was over 10 years ago) but I still have all my fingers and full function of all body parts. Previously I worked for a major British zoo for 14 years, working with a range of dangerous / venomous creatures along with various less dangerous reptiles. As a zookeeper I lost various friends within the zoo world.... there is no miracle cure if an elephant decides it doesn't like you and crushes you against the wall or a big cat rips your throat out. Luke's death was a rare event in the UK... the last death from a non-native venomous snake was that of a keeper at London Zoo back in the mid 1800's

King cobras are intelligent and may allow you to manoeuvre them with care, consideration and respect.... I try my best to keep the snake calm and be as gentle as possible. It takes time for a new snake to get used to you and start to trust its owner. I won't use tongs on our king, rather I will use a snake hook to move it around... when I've done venom extractions from kings, I've pinned the neck with a jigger and then held the snake as gentle as I dare.

Working with kings is all about gentle persuasion.... understanding the snake, being able to "read" it and pre-empt its actions.... you need to be very alert..... While I use a snake-hook to "work" ours, I do accept that other people may want to use deferent methods such as hexarmor gloves and tailing the snake. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that a calm, relaxed cooperative snake is safer to work with than one that is grabbed by tongs and freaks out every time you go near it.

Scott Eipper wrote:

Last paragraph. Rest assured etc... I maintain the view that complacency results in far more bites than free handling and that to freehandle does not mean it is inevitable to be bitten. Can you please answer my other two questions.

( That's the best that you can do...? ) I'm not sure what it is that I'm supposed to be 'Rest assured etc.' about? Yes, I think that it's reasonable to ask what motivates an individual to pick up live venomous snakes with his bare hands and then hold the snake up to his face- and then blow on the snake to make it rear back in a strike pose..... I think that my original question to Mr. Mastenbroek is a reasonable one given his previous, known behaviour. If you want answers to questions then you can get in line and wait your turn just like me and others who are waiting for some coherent answers from Mr. Mastenbroek. Remember, this discussion is about Mr. Mastenbroek's conduct with his live venomous snakes. The Thread is not about not me or my handling techniques. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Jon,

Rest assured is the first two words of your sentence.... You were struggling to find it?

Anyway, unless you are going to answer my questions I am going to leave it there. I did not realize there was a que. I thought they (the questions) were pertinent to the discussion, as it goes to your credibility. If you choose not to answer them that is fine but don't expect your opinion to hold anymore weight than that of a "barely legal teenager".

Cheers
Scott

Scott Eipper wrote:

Jon,

Rest assured is the first two words of your sentence.... You were struggling to find it?

Anyway, unless you are going to answer my questions I am going to leave it there. I did not realize there was a que. I thought they (the questions) were pertinent to the discussion, as it goes to your credibility. If you choose not to answer them that is fine but don't expect your opinion to hold anymore weight than that of a "barely legal teenager".

Cheers
Scott

It's fine with me if you leave the discussion if all you can do at this point is demand answers to questions that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. By the way, personal attacks always weaken the merit of an individual's point of view ... Good luck, Take care and Good-bye. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Jon Davidson wrote:

Your observation that everyone has a right to their opinion is correct. However, some opinions, such as ones based on many years experience- or in this case a few decades of direct experience, study and observation- are clearly worth more than than the silly musings of an adolescent with an obvious sense that he's entitled to participate in discussions even though he has absolutely no experience at all(according to what he's told us)in this particular area.

I must say now i am curious what are your experiences of, Ophiophagus, bites, freehandling or even with venomous snakes?

I do not freehandle my snakes or do not like the idea or even seeing pics about it, eventhough i think it doesn´t do good for this hobbys reputation i think snakebite deaths do even worse. Regardless if the "victim" was freehandling or an accident while changing waterbowl or some maintenance like that (which can happen to more carefull people as well). In my books it is a tragedy and it always saddens me when i read about such. I do not wish such bites to anyone and to the unlucky ones, like Richard in this case, i wish for a speedy and good recovery and all the best.

Interesting discussion indeed - but most participants talk too much about (absent and present) persons instead of facing the main question in my opinion.
Gentlemen, it doesn't matter at all WHO does or did freehandle snakes and i would appreciate it when we all could continue to discuss the fundamental question

The questions are (actually there are two):
a) can freehandling be a safe method with clearly defined benefits for both keeper and snake in comparison to the work with tools such as hooks
and, that's what actually triggered off the discussion:
b) if yes, should there be or even must there be a borderline between freehandling snakes silently in one's own walls only when they must be handled and these spectacular public actions where snakes are beeing kissed, laid around one's neck, held in front of one's face, teased and so on...?

Thanks to all for discussing here, stay calm, respect each other - and be safe!
regards
Peter

it is an interesting debate, tho jon i have to say if your not willing to share how you handle or would like to see big cobras its a tad unfair to expect richard to come on and explain himself and his techniqies, it sounds like you want him to come on so you can critisise him rather than debate techniques as this would be a two way thing not a one way thing,

scott, firstl you are entitled to an opinion no matter what your experience and age, and perfectly entitled to voice it on here, i have worked with australian elapids , kings , mambas, indo elapids, i think first of all you have to have a general understanding of what everyone means by free handling as i have heard different understandings,

1. is it then general handling without equipment, ie tailing without the use of a hook or tongs,

2. is it generally handling as you would a non venomous species

Personally i agreee with paul totally, if you can handle in a way which keeps the snake calm and doesent want to bite then that by definition is a much safer way of handling, on mambas i use hook and tail method even with my 3 meter black because he is much calmer being moved in this way, the use of tongs certainly makes most mambas feel restrained and therefore stressed. In the kings i deal with, I tend to tail gently and use the hook to direct where i want them to go, ie a trap box or another cage, I have always found that hook and tail method on elapids keeps them much calmer than any other technique used, but thats just my experience and opinion. There is a valid poin that i have heard numerous king keepers use about the sheer weight of a big king procludes the use of a hook and this is why they support the body with hands not hooks, it is a fair point, cranes can only work upto a certain point with weighty objects, people may disagree with this technique and thats fine but it shouldnt be left out of the discussion.

Quote :

which keeps the snake calm and doesent want to bite then

Dear Pete,
doesn't want to bite?
As we all (should) know, snakes ain't calculable in every situation, not even King Cobras, and that could change within small parts of a second.
It's a good thing working with relaxed snakes which "doesn't want to bite, but i personally prefer to make sure that they can not bite in case of a sudden change of mind.

and this is exactly what i wanted to stop here:

Quote :

it sounds like you want him to come on so you can critisise him

Another suggestive accusation which will lead to a response and could be able to let feelings run high.
I will delete further personally targeted comments.

regards
Peter

hiya peter

in regards to your comment, i merely mean a snake which is calmer and not restrained is less likely to flip out, i am certainly not meaning it is tame or can be trusted

i merely point out that a dabate is a two way discussion where people debate and pose both opinions rather than summoning someone on to answer for how they handle, i do not condone personal attacks in any way as i have stated, and yes jon should not be subjected to them anymore than anyone should be

Cannot really say about that handling like some of you guys mentioned that keeps the big cobras calmer and maybe more unwilling to bite as i don´t have experiences in such. And if you think about it a big cobra being very stressed and "aggressive" (i usually like more to use the defensive term but maybe in this case that word explains better whatkind of behaviour im after) in hooks and/or tongs can be more risky than a calm one sitting in a hook or hand. The reason why i haven´t done such (eventhough im pretty sure some species i have could be handled that way depending on the mood they have at that given time) is that i feel that other methods i use are safer to myself. Most easiest for me with my N. haje for example is to slide trapdoors lid shut and do what i want to do, it does not hiss from inside, rub its nose to the airholes or "door" or anything like that even if i take the box out from the enclosure so that method seems to be best for us both remembering how wild she acts when i tail her or something like that.

To Peters questions i can only answer my own opinion.

a) I don´t think but honestly i lack freehandling experience to really tell the difference, but i will still try to leave all kind of handling to minimum and try to find best ways to work with them remembering my own and the snakes safety aswell as the stressfactors involved.

b) A really good question i have also thought about many times, sometimes the pictures and videos motives seem to be different than what i think of working with venomoussnakes is. You can say that they are calmer and behave better if you freehandle when you have to move them or something but when it goes to posting many posing pics, around the neck and kissing i do not see the benefit in those. If the point is to show they are not evil like many people think could there possibly be a better way than that?

My other fear is that some less experienced people with intelligence to rival a brickwall see such and think they also can do it just like that. We had a hobbyist here in Finland who seemed ok and i sold a young albolabris some years ago. Made it clear how they are hooked and showed him and let him test it before selling to also see he is capable of doing it. He could use the hook and seemed to go ok, then when i sold him a scorpion later he told that he had got bit 3 times by it while freehandling and mentioned beer and friends in the same room at those times. 2 dry bites and 1 venomous bite which luckily did not result into anything worse. I decided i will not sell venomous to him anymore. Then some years later i got a message from him where he told me he just got away from intensive care in hospital as a young cobra bit him. I called him asking about the situation. He was angry and said that the seller had lied to him as the seller told him its a spitting cobra (N. siamensis) when actually it bited him and because of that it could not be a spitter. That comment really shocked me honestly thinking about whatkind of people can buy such snakes. He said the bite happened when changing the waterbowl but considering how he handled the albolabris and talked about such (seen pics in the internet) it is hard to say what to believe. Maybe he thought it´ś a spitter so he only has to use something to protect eyes but stories like that made me more carefull how other hobbyist sees me when i work with venomous snakes or how i write about them and the handling.

Just my thoughts

Peter Zürcher wrote:

Quote :

which keeps the snake calm and doesent want to bite then

"doesn't want to bite, but i personally prefer to make sure that they can not bite in case of a sudden change of mind.

The only way to guarantee that a snake can not bite someone is to have a "zero handling policy" as implemented in some zoos with the use of trap/ shift boxes, restraint tubes etc. But that then throws up another problem in that you then don't have trained/ confident / practised Staff with the skills to handle venomous snakes should for example one escape from its cage or new stock arrives and needs unpacking. If your in a room with a venomous snake, even wearing hexarmor gloves and using snake hooks / tongs there is still a risk of an accident and someone being bitten.

As regards handling King Cobras, is there really any need to lift them up in the air, regardless of whether the person is using a hook or their hands? Personally I don't think there is.

I've always kept King Cobras in vivs low to the ground. The 3.5m one we currently have is kept in a viv that is on a dolly so it can easily be wheeled into our spacious venom extraction room. If the cobra is in the trap-box it can be secured inside and the cage cleaned. If the trap-box needs cleaning or the snake is out in the viv, then it can easily be encouraged out into the room with a hook, that is if it doesn't come out on its own (he usually does). Normally I just steer him where I want him to go with the snake-hook... I don't always have to hold him by the tail, it just depends on whats happening at the time.

If I need to do an venom extraction I would pin the snake with a jigger on to a camping mat on the floor, then with help from a second person lift the snake up to the main milking bench (we have a set up similar to George Van-Horn's place with a big window so Staff/Students/ Visitors can watch).... alternatively we could put the collection dish & retort stand on the floor and work at a lower level..... ultimately its a case of keeping the head end of the snake under control and guiding it with a hook to where you want it to be.

as per usual paul has made a valid point on height of cage, i didnt mean to infer tailing and hooking a king at the height of the lampshades but low to ground ,

it is interesting as well the whole debate on training which jon has brought up in commenting on inexperienced and young people, training is such a difficult subject but be good to discuss at some point, i used trap boxes alot at home for general maintenance, but as paul has said there always comes a time when handling becomes essential. Georges place is pretty impressive, and watching him handle is also impressive,

Peter Zürcher wrote:

'... i would appreciate it when we all could continue to discuss the fundamental question

The questions are (actually there are two):
a) can freehandling be a safe method with clearly defined benefits for both keeper and snake in comparison to the work with tools such as hooks
and, that's what actually triggered off the discussion:
b) if yes, should there be or even must there be a borderline between freehandling snakes silently in one's own walls only when they must be handled and these spectacular public actions where snakes are beeing kissed, laid around one's neck, held in front of one's face, teased and so on...'?

I agree that this is the essential question. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

jon what do you define free handling as?

pete blake wrote:

jon what do you define free handling as?

Putting your hands on a live unrestrained specimen. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

so no hook use, or do you class a snake sat on a hook as unrestrained.

I know i,am new to keeping venomous snakes, But i did once get a chance to speak to Luke as i myself have a disability with my hand (I was born without fingers on my right hand),,luke helped advise me and his ideas was a great help and helps keeps me safe...His knowledge and passion was evident in the conversation..I have had to adapt my handling techniques to best suit me while keeping the risk factors as low as possible. I guess i just wanted to post this to show that not all techniques are the same and as individuals, people will use different methods..I myself always use hooks and also an adapted glove that a hook can slide into...This is the method that works for myself but will not be needed by most keepers,,I think my point is that people will use the method they think is best for themselves and like a lot of things in life some will always push the boundaries or mistakes will happen sadly....I hope richard has a speedy recovery and hope everyone stays safe..

Stuart McGregor wrote:

I know i,am new to keeping venomous snakes, But i did once get a chance to speak to Luke as i myself have a disability with my hand (I was born without fingers on my right hand),,luke helped advise me and his ideas was a great help and helps keeps me safe...His knowledge and passion was evident in the conversation..I have had to adapt my handling techniques to best suit me while keeping the risk factors as low as possible. I guess i just wanted to post this to show that not all techniques are the same and as individuals, people will use different methods..I myself always use hooks and also an adapted glove that a hook can slide into...This is the method that works for myself but will not be needed by most keepers,,I think my point is that people will use the method they think is best for themselves and like a lot of things in life some will always push the boundaries or mistakes will happen sadly....I hope richard has a speedy recovery and hope everyone stays safe..

Stuart, you raise some good points. Part of my responsibilities at work is to teach handling techniques to scientific researchers on behalf of the British Government. One of the first things I tell a student is that "I can show you a range of techniques and explain from experience the advantages / disadvantages of different methods"... I will also explain that there is a fair amount of variation within the confines of what is (relatively) safe. I also take into account if a person is left-handed or not. I personally have a good level of ambidexterity, but I typically use my left hand as my animal catching / holding hand. I use a jigger with my left hand but hook with my right. Also unlike a lot of seasoned snake wranglers I never use the old typical 3-fingered "viper" hold, rather I use an "elapid" style hold on all snakes... my reason for this is that as someone who routinely extracts venom, I find that a third finger on top of the snakes head can seriously get in the way of massaging the venom glands on small to medium snakes..... and when it comes to extracting venom from Echis, my personal style was noted by Rom Whitaker and he specifically had me travel to India to do extractions for a research project.

On the subject of selecting snakes for training, the first venomous snakes (after Mangroves) I learnt to hook with at the zooback in the 80's was African Bush Vipers, then in Liverpool the species I first did venom extractions from were Malayan Pit Vipers because they where a decent size and reasonable easy to hold. When selecting snakes for training, I start with a couple of harmless snakes we keep (a corn snake & a milksnake) then select a species that is fairly calm and easy to work with.... the other option might be to use a snake that isn't likely to cause a nasty bite..... it can sometimes be a balancing act between how bad a bite from a given species might be verses how likely it is to bite. Large snakes are strong and can be difficult, but at the other end of the spectrum baby echis take quite some skill to handle safely.