From Switzerland

Hello World !

I from switzerland and new on maintain about snake venom. I started the reptile on 2004, in 2006, i got +40 tarantulas and continuing snake maintain.

Actually, i got an T. Albolabris and waiting this week-end for T. Trigonocephalus.

I hope obtain in the futur: A. lubricus, A. Squamigera/hirsuta, C. cerastes and few other Smile

Like you can read, my english's small bad. So, excuse me per advance Smile

.

See you !

Welcome on this board.

Allways nice to find new people from Switzerland on the forum.
Accordind to your name I guess that you are from the "French" parts of Switzerland ?

Kind Regards,

Brian.

Hello Brian,

Yes, From Fribourg (Belfaux bourse, with Aqua-Terra Club Fribourg).

And you ?

I'm from Montreux.

As your coming from Fribourg, I guess we were trained by the same Person Wink

For all, the same :p.

It's me i realized his website :p

Excuse my english (c'est plus facile en Français ahahaha)

C'est clair Wink

Hello,

Welcome.

It seems very easy to obtain venonous snake in CH. Does the public opinion agree with that?

Sincerely.

Jean-Michel (french speaker from France)

Hi Jean Michel,

It is far from easy to obtain a license to keep venomous snakes in Switzerland.
You'll need to take training courses for both, theory and handeling.
Then you'll need to pass both examinations (theory/handeling)
Then you'll need to pass your snake room examination from the veterinary services.

Only then you can start to keep venomous snakes of the 1st from 4 categories of venomous snakes.

In the "canton" where I live, you can only keep 1 venomous snake during the first year.

As of 2014 there are only 220 licenses in whole switzerland. That not what I would call easy Wink

Thank you for your answer.

It isn't easy that true. I will start my training next automn to obtain a "certificat de capacité" - the french license to be allow to host no domestic animals - for few venomous sp. Unfortunately in France it is not so clear. Many local "politic" about this kind of animals. Anyway...

How about the 4 categories of venomous snakes? May you edit a topic about that? I can imagine mamba is category 4. But what about the first category?

Sincerely.

These categories were created to protect the keeper aswell as the snake.

It takes in account 5 ratings for each snake :
The 2 first are there to protect the animal

Maintenance difficulty
Handeling difficulty

The 3 other to protect the keeper

Natural Agressivness
Venom Toxicity
Medical difficulties to treat an envenomation

Cat 1 examples : Some Trimeresurus, some akistrodons, some vipera species etc ..
Cat 2 examples : More Trimeresurs, Sistrurus, smaller crotalus, more vipera etc...
Cat 3 examples : Some Naja species, some Deinakistrodon, Macrovipera, etc. ...
Cat 4 examples : Larger Elapid species, lachesis, Dendoaspis, Bothrops, Most naja's, see snakes, etc ...

And just because I missed it out in my first post, you need a special handeling course for Elapids of category 3 & 4.
When you start, you mainly start with 1 cat1 snake, then you can go up from there. For category 4, you need at least 6 years of experience from which at least 3 years with cat 3 snakes.

Brian.

Quote :: Medical difficulties to treat an envenomation

This cannot be a realistic criterion in my opinion. It could be more difficult to treat an Atheris- than a Dendroaspis-bite. While Dendroaspis spp. are in category 4, where would you list Atheris spp.?

Peter Zürcher wrote:

Quote :: Medical difficulties to treat an envenomation

This cannot be a realistic criterion in my opinion. It could be more difficult to treat an Atheris- than a Dendroaspis-bite. While Dendroaspis spp. are in category 4, where would you list Atheris spp.?

This criterion is part of several criterions that lead to classefy Dendroaspis in cat 4.

Her are the exact ratings for Atheris and Dendroaspis for you to get an idea :

Order is : Species, Maintenance difficulty(1-10), Handeling difficulty(1-5), Species agressivity (1-5), Venom Toxicity (1-10), Difficulty to treat envenomation (1-10), Averall rating (5-40)

Atheris squamigera : 3, 2, 3,5,5 total :18 = cat 2
Dendroaspis polelylepis : 4,5,4,10,10 total : 33 = cat 4

If I'm correct, before the antivenom for Dendroaspis Polylepis was available, a bite from it was concidered the "kiss of death" as it was close to 100% fatal issues.
And if I'm not wrong (which I could be) there is no antivenom for Atheris but a very low "death to bite" ratio.

From this point of view, saying that Dendroaspis envenomation is medically more significant seems quite "realistic" to me.

But it is very interesting to discuss this point as every person reacts differently, and please remember that this classification is NOT meant to be a dangerousness index of snakes. It is meant to prevent unexperienced keepers to aquire snake they probably can not deal with.

If you consider the "medical difficulty" of the treatment, Dendroaspis bites are surely less complicated to treat as those of Atheris spp..
What's really that difficult in treating a Dendroaspis bite with antivenom and/or artificial respiration compared to the treatment of severe Atheris bites with their possible life-threatening hemotoxic effects?

Quote :: as every person reacts differently

that's true, but can hardly be considered in that list.

Quote :: prevent unexperienced keepers to aquire snake they probably can not deal with

also true and a good idea, but here too "medical difficulties of the treatment" do not have any importance, and finally, what else than a kind of "dangerous index" is that list then?

Who created this list, and is this "official" in Switzerland?

Peter Zürcher wrote:: What's really that difficult in treating a Dendroaspis bite with antivenom and/or artificial respiration compared to the treatment of severe Atheris bites with their possible life-threatening hemotoxic effects?

The main differences from my point of view is "Time" Dendroaspis venom is a very fast acting powerfull neurotoxin. According to literature (Jiri Valenta's Venomous Snakes - Evenoming Therapy) Severe neurological effect can kick in in as short as 10 minutes. The other point is Venom Yield. And adult full grown polylepis can deliver huge amounts of venom thus requiring more antivenom. Its not rare to see cases where 20+ vials are required. The first bite in Switzerland would basically empty the stocks we have.

Peter Zürcher wrote:

Quote :: prevent unexperienced keepers to aquire snake they probably can not deal with

what else than a kind of "dangerous index" is that list then?

This list is supposed to protect the snake as well by using the maintenance index. How many keepers have tried to keep difficult species and have slowly driven the snakes to death. Take Atheris Hispida as an example.

Peter Zürcher wrote:: Who created this list, and is this "official" in Switzerland?

This list has been issued by the "Vivarium de Lausanne" and the person in charge of training keepers in the french part of Switzerland.
And the list is used by the Swiss Veterinary Services to deliver authorizations.

In fact when you pass the examination you receive a certificate. On this certificate is indicated the categories that you can handle.
Based on that the veterinary services give you the according license.

Kind regards,

Brian

Quote :: The main differences from my point of view is "Time" Dendroaspis venom is a very fast acting powerfull neurotoxin.............

I'm quite well informed about the toxins of D. polylepis and other venomous snakes as well.

But once more: what's that difficult in treating a mamba bite compared to other problems caused by other snakes like severe coagulation problems or the well known problems triggered off by severe cytotoxic effects? These problems are more difficult to fight, if we take in mind, that doctors are usually more or less overstrained in those cases. Neither fast acting toxins nor the need of high dosages do change the fact that treatments of Dendroaspis bites are a relatively simple thing (compared to many other species) and do not require much specific knowledge of the medical staff.

Quote :: This list is supposed to protect the snake as well by using the maintenance index. How many keepers have tried to keep difficult species and have slowly driven the snakes to death.

Agreed, but we find this problem in all kinds of reptiles, so this cannot be an argument supporting this list, all the more there are surely some not that easy to keep snakes in the lower categories 1 and 2, or do we find snakes like some rare Bothriopsis spp. or Atheris hispida in category 4?

I don't like such lists. They're too technically and too theoretical - and they easily can switch off the common sense. And they're not reliable in all cases - regarding the criterion "Natural Aggressivness" with it's individual differences per example....

Peter Zürcher wrote:: But once more: what's that difficult in treating a mamba bite compared to other problems caused by other snakes like severe coagulation problems or the well known problems triggered off by severe cytotoxic effects? These problems are more difficult to fight, if we take in mind, that doctors are usually more or less overstrained in those cases. Neither fast acting toxins nor the need of high dosages do change the fact that treatments of Dendroaspis bites are a relatively simple thing (compared to many other species) and do not require much specific knowledge of the medical staff.

You got a bit off-track on that one. You've gone from comparing Atheris and Polylepis(in your first post) to comparing Polylepis vs all other snake venoms. Of course there are worst venoms that polylepis. Lachesis, Oxyuranus, Naja Nivea etc ..

Peter Zürcher wrote:: Agreed, but we find this problem in all kinds of reptiles, so this cannot be an argument supporting this list, all the more there are surely some not that easy to keep snakes in the lower categories 1 and 2, or do we find snakes like some rare Bothriopsis spp. or Atheris hispida in category 4?

Bothriopsis are mainly in cat 3, Bothriopsis taeniata beeing in cat 4

Peter Zürcher wrote:: I don't like such lists. They're too technically and too theoretical - and they easily can switch off the common sense. And they're not reliable in all cases - regarding the criterion "Natural Aggressivness" with it's individual differences per example....

This is a personnal feeling. I'm not sharing it but I can understand it.

I largely prefere a system of regulations with a list, even if the list is not perfect to a system where you can get watever you want and put everyone at risk because you get overwelmed by a 7 foot Naja Melanoleuca.

Keep in mind that no list will open the eventuallity that some idiots start with more difficult snakes. That's when accidents happen and that's bad for the hobby.

Sheers,

Brian

Quote :: You got a bit off-track on that one. You've gone from comparing Atheris and Polylepis(in your first post) to comparing Polylepis vs all other snake venoms. Of course there are worst venoms that polylepis. Lachesis, Oxyuranus, Naja Nivea etc ..

No, i didn't compare venoms. I compared different levels of difficulty in the treatment of various snake bites , just like your list does under the criterion "Medical Difficulties".
And i see some comparisons very different - that's all. Wink

And accidents happen to experienced people too, it's not a privilege of beginners, may they be serious or idiotic.
One can overregulate everything, so why not this hobby? The more rules and lists, the less common sense involved.

Thank you for your informations.

Such rating is interesting. Last question. Does Boiga dendro. is quote? Cat 1?

Sincerely.

Jean-Michel

Boiga are an exception snake. They aren't in cat. . You don't Need any courses or paper for get one

Hi all,

This list is applied only in a small part of Switzerland (must be in the canton Fribourg when I'm right). This list is definitely nothing official and will not be applied in the rest of Switzerland. This list was not created from the Federal Veterinary Office, so in fact it's not a valid one.

There are probably some good approaches but thats it. For example, why I should keep a Agkistrodon for 3 years, when I will keep at the end a Naja? What happens then with the Agkistrodon when I may keep that Naja? My own experience is, that it's much easier to fix a Naja then a Agkistrodon.. and so one...

In my opinion everybody must know for himself which Species he feel ready for - in that Hobby you must know your own Limits.

Yannick Berthoud wrote:: Boiga are an exception snake. They aren't in cat. . You don't Need any courses or paper for get one

I'm sorry, but that's not correct. Here in Switzerland, Boiga dendrophila and Toxicodryas (Boiga) blandingii need an authorization to keep, like "normal" venomous snakes. In which category is unnecessary anyway. Only all the other Boigas are still exempted from the keeping authorization - currently...

This for your info.

Best regards,

Michael

Thank you. French regulation is strongest. Nobody could keep Boiga without a license.

Sad

Sincerely.

Michael, not the cyanea. Maybe for dendrophila and other? Or thé rules changed not long ago?

Like for heterodon.

Hello Yannick,

Right, the Boiga cyanea need no keeping authorization, same for the Heterodon ssp.

Jean-Michel is asking for Boiga dendrophila, thats why I have corrected it.

At the moment following Rear-fanged snakes need an authorization to keep in Switzerland:

Boiga dendrophila, Toxicodryas blandingii, Dispholidus Typus, Thelotornis ssp., Philodryas olfersii, Malpolon monspessulanus

But at the moment they work here in Switzerland on a new legislation, lets see what the future brings...

Best regards,

Michael

Ho excuse me, bad readed Smile

Michael Artho wrote:: This list was not created from the Federal Veterinary Office, so in fact it's not a valid one.

Hi Michael,

No one said it was created by the Federal Veterinary Office. But I can assure you (since it is my case) that this list is used by the Veterinary Office in my residential area to qualify you for an authorization.

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