plastic rack

Hi guys,

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I would like to know if a plastic rack can provide suitable conditions for keeping snake.i keep most of my snakes in plastic racks without any problems so far but i'm not relly surthat i'm doing the right thing.

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cheers Aris

Hi Aris

I think racks do work very well with many snakes, but I don't think it works very well with more active snakes like cobras and so on but that's just my guessing, I have no experience with that.

I like it much more if my snakes have a lot of space, and I have enough space trying to recreate their natural habitat....and that looks much better than racks

Thanks for the answer Markus.I'm sure now that my tropidolaemus(the laziest snakes in the world ) will do just fine in the racks!!!

You do NOT want to house fast moving and jumpy snakes like cobras, mambas, king browns, mangrove snakes ect. because you never know when they are in position to suprise you when you pull the plastic tub out! If you do those snakes you have a high chance of getting a serious bite. I would keep slower moving species like gaboons, rhino vipers, copper heads ect. even though you never know what to expect.... But I would stick to cages that have front sliding doors and trap boxes like neodesha cages and vision cages because you can estimate what the animal is thinking and where is at.... something a rack system can't do....

aristarxos politis wrote:

Thanks for the answer Markus.I'm sure now that my tropidolaemus(the laziest snakes in the world ) will do just fine in the racks!!!

I would be mindful of keeping Tropidolaemus in a rack system. The biggest issue you are going to have is not enough air flow. Combined with the temperature and humitiy needed for this genus it will make a perfect environment for bacteria. Cleanliness is key, in my opinion, if you choose to house them in this fashion.



On the general note of racks, I only keep Cerastes and Aspidelaps in this type of set up. I've tried these species in other caging and prefer the open top for maintaining and working with them. No matter what is being kept in the rack, it is a good idea to get in the habit of sliding the drawer open with a snake hook rather than your hand........better to be safe.

JonK

Rick Downunder wrote:

You do NOT want to house fast moving and jumpy snakes like cobras, mambas, king browns, mangrove snakes ect. because you never know when they are in position to suprise you when you pull the plastic tub out! If you do those snakes you have a high chance of getting a serious bite. I would keep slower moving species like gaboons, rhino vipers, copper heads ect. even though you never know what to expect.... But I would stick to cages that have front sliding doors and trap boxes like neodesha cages and vision cages because you can estimate what the animal is thinking and where is at.... something a rack system can't do....

I would never try to fit a gaboon into a rack
Will need 3 people to open it with the female i have

I AM CLEANING THE RACKS EVERY 10 DAYS WITH HOT WATER AND CLOROX.I ALSO KEEP THEM DRY FOR THE FIRST 5 DAYS AND THEN I CREATE A SEMI AQUATIC ENVIROMENT FOR THE REST 5.SO FAR I HAVE NO PROBLEMS AND I THINK THAT THOSE LAZY SNAKES WILL CONTINUE TO DO NOTHING FOR MANY YEARS !

All the big, natural type cages I see are surely beautiful, and most likely the very best way to keep a snake, especially a wild caught snake, who was used to wide open spaces. I'm not so sure a captive born/hatched snake will miss the wide open, natural spaces that a WC snake would miss, so I do not feel keeping CB animals in racks is a problem in that capacity. If I had the room, I would have those big lavish cages for each animal in my collection.

I have Cobras in rack systems made of melamine. I have decided to go with CDPVC next time I build racks. Weight is one reason. Also, the fact that moisture will not be absorbed by PVC, so PVC can be washed easier and containers sprayed to provide more moisture, without the possibility of ruining the racks.

Safe rack systems can be adapted to fit virtually any venomous snake. I have a venomous rack in my snake nursery room. The rack is made so that the lids can be used, so the snake can never come out when your pulling the container out. And, the lids of these tubs are flat and they fit fairly tightly, with handles that latch on each end. There is no possible way for a snake to push the lid up and escape, or get you when pulling the container out.

For proper ventilation, you use a soldering iron with pointed tip to melt as many holes on the two long sides, as you feel is necessary. You should not put holes on the ends, because a spitter may get you through those holes as you pass by, let alone the possibility of taking a bite from a snake with longer fangs. True, you don't have the best cross ventilation because the container is slid inbetween the walls of the rack, but they seem to do fine, whether I'm using newspaper or cypress mulch for substrate. The snakes seem to shed fine. As a matter of fact I found 3 nice sheds yesterday, that I was able to get scale counts from, for my records.

The containers in the rack system pictured below, house adult cobras that are smaller species, like siamensis, sumatrana, oxiana, nubiae, pallida, mossambica, and small specimens of other species like annulifera, naja, nigricollis, kaouthia, etc. The floors of these containers are approx. 79cm x 33cm, (31" x 12 1/2"). I will be purchasing some containers soon that have floor space measuring at least 121cm x 40cm (48" x 16"). Those will house most any of the larger sized Cobras.

Randy Ciuros wrote:

All the big, natural type cages I see are surely beautiful, and most likely the very best way to keep a snake, especially a wild caught snake, who was used to wide open spaces. I'm not so sure a captive born/hatched snake will miss the wide open, natural spaces that a WC snake would miss, so I do not feel keeping CB animals in racks is a problem in that capacity. If I had the room, I would have those big lavish cages for each animal in my collection.

I have Cobras in rack systems made of melamine. I have decided to go with CDPVC next time I build racks. Weight is one reason. Also, the fact that moisture will not be absorbed by PVC, so PVC can be washed easier and containers sprayed to provide more moisture, without the possibility of ruining the racks.

Safe rack systems can be adapted to fit virtually any venomous snake. I have a venomous rack in my snake nursery room. The rack is made so that the lids can be used, so the snake can never come out when your pulling the container out. And, the lids of these tubs are flat and they fit fairly tightly, with handles that latch on each end. There is no possible way for a snake to push the lid up and escape, or get you when pulling the container out.

For proper ventilation, you use a soldering iron with pointed tip to melt as many holes on the two long sides, as you feel is necessary. You should not put holes on the ends, because a spitter may get you through those holes as you pass by, let alone the possibility of taking a bite from a snake with longer fangs. True, you don't have the best cross ventilation because the container is slid inbetween the walls of the rack, but they seem to do fine, whether I'm using newspaper or cypress mulch for substrate. The snakes seem to shed fine. As a matter of fact I found 3 nice sheds yesterday, that I was able to get scale counts from, for my records.

The containers in the rack system pictured below, house adult cobras that are smaller species, like siamensis, sumatrana, oxiana, nubiae, pallida, mossambica, and small specimens of other species like annulifera, naja, nigricollis, kaouthia, etc. The floors of these containers are approx. 79cm x 33cm, (31" x 12 1/2"). I will be purchasing some containers soon that have floor space measuring at least 121cm x 40cm (48" x 16"). Those will house most any of the larger sized Cobras.

Nice setup sir

Yes, very nice setup. Very clean. I like it!

Very nice setup. I like the wide, low rack system as opposed to higher racks.

Thanks guys. This rack needs to be low, as it houses Cobras, and there are no lids on the Sterilite containers. I could have made it one row higher, but I needed room for other cages on top. I no longer have the Vision Cages. Now on top of that rack is a 6' long and two 4' long Neodesha Standard (slanted front) cages.

Today I started building another rack similar to this one, but it holds 12 of the Iris Christmas Trees Storage containers that Walmart sells at Christman time. They are about 52" long, 19" wide, and 11 1/2" tall. They are great for adult N. kaouthia, or larger snakes, but they cost about $28 each. I bought 24 of them last Christmas, and I will buy more this year, and build another rack. I'll post photos of the new rack tomorrow or Sunday.

Randy

Randy Ciuros wrote:

Thanks guys. This rack needs to be low, as it houses Cobras, and there are no lids on the Sterilite containers. I could have made it one row higher, but I needed room for other cages on top. I no longer have the Vision Cages. Now on top of that rack is a 6' long and two 4' long Neodesha Standard (slanted front) cages.

Today I started building another rack similar to this one, but it holds 12 of the Iris Christmas Trees Storage containers that Walmart sells at Christman time. They are about 52" long, 19" wide, and 11 1/2" tall. They are great for adult N. kaouthia, or larger snakes, but they cost about $28 each. I bought 24 of them last Christmas, and I will buy more this year, and build another rack. I'll post photos of the new rack tomorrow or Sunday.

Randy

Love to see that

In my opinion racks works fine for quarantine or for commercial breeders (raising juveniles) , I do not get the point why private keepers of a few snakes are interested in rack keeping.
I still have to say that Randy setup looks clean and well planed.

rgds Fabian

Don't get too excited Todd. The new rack is going to look very similar to the one in the photo above, but there are only 12 containers. I will post a photo of a 5'+ N. kaouthia in the container along with a hide box and water bowl, that is a 5 gal. bucket cut down to about 6 - 7" tall, so you can see just how much room they have.

Fabian: I don't think private keepers with a few snakes use racks. When I started keeping exotic venomous, mostly Cobras in 1999, I used Neodesha, Vision, and homemade wood cages. I had 4 - 3' Visions (Pictured above), 16 - 2' Neos, 15 - 3' Neos, 4 - 4' Neos, and 1 - 6' Neo, all the Standard slant-front, sliding glass models. I also have 4 - 6' Custom Neos with sliding glass. I do prefer the sliding glass fronts to any other style.

I built a small melamine rack in 2005, to house the first babies I ever produced, Pseudonaja textilis and Naja naja. I also had a cheap rack that held 12 of the containers pictured above, but that was to quarantine new animals, and was kept in a separate room in my home in North Carolina. I still have that rack and it is still a quarantine rack, kept in a separate room from my two hot rooms.

There is no reason for someone with 20 snakes to use racks, but to each his own. I have 67 venomous now, not including the 5.5 Naja sumatrana and 1.1 Psuedechis rossignolli, that are coming to Europe soon. I have 1 Crotalus, 1 Bitis, 1.2 N. haje, and the rest are Asian Cobras, including 2.1 Malay Kings. I will have many more Cobras this year from my own breedings as well as trades I am making with people in Europe for my N. sumatrana.

I will also be donating some Cobras to Biotoxins, here in Florida, for their venom extraction, and show cages. I may also be involved in a joint breeding program with a group in S. E. Asia that extracts venom and does educational snake shows. Helping both of us, so we are not inbreeding so much, not taking more animals from the wild, and helping them with extra Cobras for their venom extraction. There are plenty of most all snake species already in collections, so people need not buy or import wild caught. Anyone that wants my Yellow N. sumatrana will be able to get some later this year, and then there will be maybe 15 people breeding them just in Europe, and me and maybe 2 others in USA. Anyway I have rambled on long enough. Got to go finish that rack. Take care all.

Randy

Fabian Dirks wrote:

In my opinion racks works fine for quarantine or for commercial breeders (raising juveniles) , I do not get the point why private keepers of a few snakes are interested in rack keeping.

rgds Fabian

I agree. Sensory deprivation is the first thing that comes to mind when I see these so called 'rack' type cages for snakes. A lack of adequete space for an animal to move around and stretch out, and a lack of proper ventilation and natural sunlight are other obvious concerns. Although, as Mr. Ciuros has pointed out, these 'racks' type cages are cheap and easy to construct and allow a keeper to keep large numbers of snakes in a collection. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Wow... this thread starts off great with a member sharing pics of his setup and some very deserved compliments.

Then, some negativity starts to flow. I don't know, to me it seems very much a personal preference amongst keepers or breeders as to how they are housed. If someone doesn't care for it it would show more etiquette to simply not say anything about it at all, at least on a public forum.

I keep both types, cages and racks. As does the author of this post, as expressed. There are clear and distinct advantages of racks over cages, and vice versa. I would hate to see this thread turn into a "what's better, rack or cage" thread. Because the fact is they are both great to have, and when keepers/breeders use both it demonstrates their knowledge of such.

I ride an American built bike. Someone else may ride a Japanese or European made bike. What is better? Well, that depends on the person using such vehicle and their needs. There are pros and cons to anything. All just a matter of personal preference.

Personally, I like Randy's setups. They are very nice, very clean and very functional.

I also like the fact that he is sharing pictures and info on them.

Thanks again,
Greg

Greg Spencer wrote:

I don't know, to me it seems very much a personal preference amongst keepers or breeders as to how they are housed. If someone doesn't care for it it would show more etiquette to simply not say anything about it at all, at least on a public forum.

In my view, individual Venomland members should be allowed to express their perspectives freely and openly, even if that opposing perspective is not shared by every member. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

I agree with you Jon, it is important for people to have access to others experience. Opinions are usually based on ones personal experience or beliefs. I was once a new comer to the venomous keeping community and can say that although I did not agree with some peoples opinions in the past. Sometimes those opinions stuck in my head and had me thinking about what could be done to better my keeping and personal safety. I used to keep all my animals in rack systems and I do still keep some in them, but these days most of my breeders are in display cages because I enjoy seeing the animals. I do house some breeders in racks but the rack tubs themselves are at least the same dimensions as I would use to house them in regularly without the height of coarse. Randy I love the christmas tree box rack! I have been considering building a similar system for some of my adults I would love to see some pics when you get it built.
Joe

Jon: I'm sure "sensory deprivation" is not a problem. Especially with CB animals. Also, as long as the snake can stretch out around the perimeter of the cage and not overlap itself, it is big enough. If someone wants to use overly large, naturalistic cages, more power to them. But, it doesn't lend itself to healthier snakes, or better breeding. They just look awesome. Maybe the snake likes it better, but a CB animal only knows what it has been kept in. A CB snake does not miss wide open spaces.

Ventilation is not a problem, as there is a 1/8" - 1/4" gap at the top (depending on what size snakes will be in the rack), so the cage slides in and out freely, and there are airholes down both sides. Unless you have a fan IN your big, elaborate cage, then ventilation is about the same. I have 4 ceiling fans going at all times so I'm sure air does get in the cages, and I am out there every day opening the cages to check water and clean up feces and shed skins if needed.

I know "natural sunlight" is NOT needed for snakes. I've read it in scientific papers. They do NOT even need a false day/night light change or night temp drop. My snake rooms are dark unless I am in one of them, and they are kept at a constant temp all year around, unless I'm cooling before breeding, and I have no problems breeding and raising my animals.

Jon does have a right to speak his mind, but if I were him, I would wonder what size snake is in what size cage, and how the cage is built, and not just assume that the cage is too small, or not ventilated enough, or it does not have enough light, just because it is a rack system. I was at Biotoxins Lab the other day. They extract venom for research and making antivenin, and they keep their snakes is rack systems, as do most venom labs. If it were not healthy for the snakes, I doubt they would keep them that way.

Greg: I ride American also, 1975 Chopped Shovelhead, and YES, American Iron is the BEST, haha. Most people in Europe seem to like the big elaborate naturalistic cages, and that is fine. They may never have used racks, so maybe they don't know much about racks, or the advantages of using them. People have the right to not like something others like, but I feel they should ask questions and/or learn something about the subject, rather than just make statements that may sound like negative comments.

Here are some photos of the finished rack with the big containers.





This female N. kaouthia is almost 6' long, and possibly gravid.


My size 10 shoe in the cage next to her mid-body so you can see how big she really is.

Nice build!

Thanks Greg,

I left at 10am on Fri to go buy the materials. I spent a total of about $220 including some things I already had. The containers cost $28 each. I actually worked on the rack from 11:30am - 5:30pm on Friday, and started working again today at 10:30am, and finished it at 2:30pm. That included putting holes in 6 containers with a soldering iron, putting cypress mulch in those 6 and spraying the mulch with mite spray as a preventative measure, and putting the 6 containers that already had adult Cobras in them, in the rack.

Fairly quick and cheap for 12 big cages.

Very nice build i always wondered about those tree boxes lol

Randy Ciuros wrote:

Jon: I'm sure "sensory deprivation" is not a problem. Especially with CB animals. Also, as long as the snake can stretch out around the perimeter of the cage and not overlap itself, it is big enough. If someone wants to use overly large, naturalistic cages, more power to them. But, it doesn't lend itself to healthier snakes, or better breeding. They just look awesome. Maybe the snake likes it better, but a CB animal only knows what it has been kept in. A CB snake does not miss wide open spaces.

Ventilation is not a problem, as there is a 1/8" - 1/4" gap at the top (depending on what size snakes will be in the rack), so the cage slides in and out freely, and there are airholes down both sides. Unless you have a fan IN your big, elaborate cage, then ventilation is about the same. I have 4 ceiling fans going at all times so I'm sure air does get in the cages, and I am out there every day opening the cages to check water and clean up feces and shed skins if needed.

I know "natural sunlight" is NOT needed for snakes. I've read it in scientific papers. They do NOT even need a false day/night light change or night temp drop. My snake rooms are dark unless I am in one of them, and they are kept at a constant temp all year around, unless I'm cooling before breeding, and I have no problems breeding and raising my animals.

Jon does have a right to speak his mind, but if I were him, I would wonder what size snake is in what size cage, and how the cage is built, and not just assume that the cage is too small, or not ventilated enough, or it does not have enough light, just because it is a rack system. I was at Biotoxins Lab the other day. They extract venom for research and making antivenin, and they keep their snakes is rack systems, as do most venom labs. If it were not healthy for the snakes, I doubt they would keep them that way.

Greg: I ride American also, 1975 Chopped Shovelhead, and YES, American Iron is the BEST, haha. Most people in Europe seem to like the big elaborate naturalistic cages, and that is fine. They may never have used racks, so maybe they don't know much about racks, or the advantages of using them. People have the right to not like something others like, but I feel they should ask questions and/or learn something about the subject, rather than just make statements that may sound like negative comments.

One can see for themselves from your original photograph how these cages were constructed. We can also see a couple of live specimens in the cages as well, which provides us with a sense of scale in relation to the size of the snake and its cage. Experienced snake keepers can decide for themselves if your methods and subsequent explanations represent the best way in which to keep snakes in captivity. Clearly you feel that you have much to teach the Venomlamd membership about how to keep snakes in captivity- and I'm sure that you do- although, perhaps not in the way in which you intended. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

[/quote]One can see for themselves from your original photograph how these cages were constructed. We can also see a couple of live specimens in the cages as well, which provides us with a sense of scale in relation to the size of the snake and its cage. Experienced snake keepers can decide for themselves if your methods and subsequent explanations represent the best way in which to keep snakes in captivity. Clearly you feel that you have much to teach the Venomlamd membership about how to keep snakes in captivity- and I'm sure that you do- although, perhaps not in the way in which you intended. Sincerely, Jon Davidson . [/quote]

Yes, one can basically see how the racks are constructed, if they have a little knowledge of carpentry. And, I give measurements of the tubs, and the species that those tubs are big enough for. So, why someone would think they are too small, is beyond me. I've kept the species mentioned in the tubs I mentioned, and bred them in those tubs. If your used to having huge cages for each snake, even if the cage is way too big by someone elses standards, then you may think that racks are too small, but your comparing them to your cages, not the actual size of the snake, and what the snake actually needs. By your way of thinking, every venom lab I have seen, and probably most venom labs in the world, not to mention breeders that many people buy from so not to take from the wild, are housing their snakes in cages that are too small.

There is no snake visable in the plastic tubs in the original photo, that would lead someone to believe that the tubs are not big enough for the snake inside. A Florida Fish and Game officer comes to my house periodically to check on my snakes and how I am keeping them. Evidently I am doing fine, because he comes back with other officers, sometimes Federal officers to show them my snakes, and how nice everything is. He has become a friend, instead of someone you dread coming to check on you.

Clearly I feel that I have much to teach the Venomlamd membership??? NO, not even. Someone asked if the way he was keeping his snakes was ok, and I showed him what I use, that is similar to what he uses, and what snakes fit in them. There was no reason for anyone to make comments saying that way is wrong, or may be wrong.

If someone started a post, asking about keeping a snake is a huge cage with many plants, and tree branches, and etc, I may read the post and the answers, to maybe learn something, but since I have no experience with huge, elaborate cages, I would keep quiet, as I would have nothing constructive to say on the matter, except how nice they look. Obviously, some people feel different, and feel their way is best, or they would not have posted about how tubs are too small, do not have good ventilation, and not have good light (that is not needed anyway).

Yes, experienced keepers can decide for themselves, but people should not make comments, that are not backed up by facts. That helps no one, and helping others is what I think Venomland can and does do best. I have learned a lot from Venomland and it's membership, and by no means do I think I know everything. Far from it, but I do know about rack systems, so I posted. I have built 9 rack systems, and I still have 8 of them. Damn, I tried to help someone, and I end up defending my cages to people that probably have never seen a rack system, let alone used one.

Randy