plastic rack

Randy, thanks again for your pictures, input, and your time. I saw where this thread was possibly heading which is why I tried to nip it in the bud earlier. However when I realized it did not work I decided it best to simply not respond to any type of negativity that really did not belong on the thread. Just a matter of etiquette. Then again, we both ride
American Iron so we might just have natural class regardless...

I wouldn't let any hecklers get to you nor do you need to defend yourself here. Your posts have been great and that speaks volumes by itself.

I'm sure that you know all about 'rack systems', Mr. Ciuros, and I appreciate the efforts that you have made to explain your perspective; although, your original comments that: 'All the big, natural type cages I see are surely beautiful and most likely the very best way to keep a snake...'; and: 'If I had the room, I would have those big, lavish cages for each animal in my collection' suggests that your have chosen maintenance efficiency and keeper convenience over any consideration for a more humane and naturalistic environment for your captive snakes. Your observation that your method of keeping captive snakes appears to be 'fine' and 'nice' may be correct; although one may note that your rationale is the same rationale used by the operators of puppy mills who often attempt to justify keeping their dogs in tiny little wire cages- purely for breeding purposes- by explaining that because the dogs are often born into the puppy mill environment and thereby don't know any other kind of Life then, therefore, it's 'fine' and nice' and ok to keep dogs in a confined and sensory deprived setting. Perhaps you could please clarify the incongruence of your statements in this discussion. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Thanks Greg, it was nice talking to you, and if you want to talk more, you can email me. This will be my last post about this. I don't have time to play games with people who think they know more than everybody else.

Jon: Your post started out great, but then you had to say "...suggests that your have chosen maintenance efficiency and keeper convenience over any consideration for a more humane and naturalistic environment for your captive snakes.", and "...your rationale is the same rationale used by the operators of puppy mills..."

I must say sir, you are an XcensoredX I have already explained the point of cage sizes. If it is fine for venom labs, it is fine for me. Most of my snakes are CB so there is nothing inhumane about the way I keep them. Yes, maintenance is easier when caging this way. Putting pretty plants and things in the cages takes time. Time that I could be using to clean more cages. I have tried to be nice and explain why I keep my snakes the same way as people like Bill Haast, George Van Horn, Tom Crutchfield, Mitch Brynes, and hundreds of others, but you obviously know more than Bill, George, Tom, Mitch or anyone else with more than a few snakes.

I guess you can no longer answer someones question on this website, without someone making ignorant comments, with NO facts to back them up.

Have a good day Jon. Sorry we could not have a rational discussion without you insulting me.

The point of this site is to exchange info on some of the most beautiful reptiles on the planet its really nice to have this kind of contact witch would otherwise not be possible with out going to shows and such. There was no need in the comments you made Jon Randy was just trying to help out a fellow keeper with r way to do something and negative comments like that are going to eventually be the end of this beautiful site. Meaning people will not want to post in fear of such ridiculous comments. I also keep some of my reptiles in racks with no problems at all. I also am checked by FWC officers and the rack design i use is the one i got from photos of Randy. Trust me if there were anything wrong with the way a rack houses reptiles they(FWC) would be all over us. To compare rack users to puppy mill operators is really a fare shot . Your opinion is just that your opinion and as a intelligent person i would suspect you also know at times you should keep it to yourself.

Randy Ciuros wrote:: Thanks Greg, it was nice talking to you, and if you want to talk more, you can email me. This will be my last post about this. I don't have time to play games with people who think they know more than everybody else.

Jon: Your post started out great, but then you had to say "...suggests that your have chosen maintenance efficiency and keeper convenience over any consideration for a more humane and naturalistic environment for your captive snakes.", and "...your rationale is the same rationale used by the operators of puppy mills..."

I must say sir, you are an XcensoredX I have already explained the point of cage sizes. If it is fine for venom labs, it is fine for me. Most of my snakes are CB so there is nothing inhumane about the way I keep them. Yes, maintenance is easier when caging this way. Putting pretty plants and things in the cages takes time. Time that I could be using to clean more cages. I have tried to be nice and explain why I keep my snakes the same way as people like Bill Haast, George Van Horn, Tom Crutchfield, Mitch Brynes, and hundreds of others, but you obviously know more than Bill, George, Tom, Mitch or anyone else with more than a few snakes.

I guess you can no longer answer someones question on this website, without someone making ignorant comments, with NO facts to back them up.

Have a good day Jon. Sorry we could not have a rational discussion without you insulting me.

Please note that my comments in this discussion have not been 'ignorant'; nor have I insulted you or otherwise made the dialogue personal by calling you an XcensoredX. I respect your emotions on this issue, Mr. Ciuros, and I understand how you need the opinions of others to validate your activities. Perhaps other Venomland members will read through this Thread; consider the different points of view, and draw their own conclusions as to which perspective has greater merit... With best wishes, Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Gentlemen!

It's far enough!

If someone likes and uses racks, he should feel free to post his opinions here.
If someone does not, he has the right to refuse this way of keeping snakes - and furthermore he has the right to post his opinions here!

Please try to discuss that in a professional way keeping out any personal fightings and insults.

I do not like racks personally (and the austrian law prohibits the use of'em for adult snakes), but i would never insult anyone who does.
Vice versa no one whose ethic or practical visions of keping snakes do not fit together with rack systems should be insulted by rack proponents.
Thank you!

regards
Peter

Randy Ciuros wrote:: Jon: I'm sure "sensory deprivation" is not a problem. Especially with CB animals. Also, as long as the snake can stretch out around the perimeter of the cage and not overlap itself, it is big enough. If someone wants to use overly large, naturalistic cages, more power to them. But, it doesn't lend itself to healthier snakes, or better breeding. They just look awesome. Maybe the snake likes it better, but a CB animal only knows what it has been kept in. A CB snake does not miss wide open spaces.

Ventilation is not a problem, as there is a 1/8" - 1/4" gap at the top (depending on what size snakes will be in the rack), so the cage slides in and out freely, and there are airholes down both sides. Unless you have a fan IN your big, elaborate cage, then ventilation is about the same. I have 4 ceiling fans going at all times so I'm sure air does get in the cages, and I am out there every day opening the cages to check water and clean up feces and shed skins if needed.

I know "natural sunlight" is NOT needed for snakes. I've read it in scientific papers. They do NOT even need a false day/night light change or night temp drop. My snake rooms are dark unless I am in one of them, and they are kept at a constant temp all year around, unless I'm cooling before breeding, and I have no problems breeding and raising my animals.

Jon does have a right to speak his mind, but if I were him, I would wonder what size snake is in what size cage, and how the cage is built, and not just assume that the cage is too small, or not ventilated enough, or it does not have enough light, just because it is a rack system. I was at Biotoxins Lab the other day. They extract venom for research and making antivenin, and they keep their snakes is rack systems, as do most venom labs. If it were not healthy for the snakes, I doubt they would keep them that way.

Greg: I ride American also, 1975 Chopped Shovelhead, and YES, American Iron is the BEST, haha. Most people in Europe seem to like the big elaborate naturalistic cages, and that is fine. They may never have used racks, so maybe they don't know much about racks, or the advantages of using them. People have the right to not like something others like, but I feel they should ask questions and/or learn something about the subject, rather than just make statements that may sound like negative comments.

Here are some photos of the finished rack with the big containers.

This female N. kaouthia is almost 6' long, and possibly gravid.

My size 10 shoe in the cage next to her mid-body so you can see how big she really is.

THese are incredible racks. I would love to build something like this for my Boos

The melamine sheets that I bought at Home Depot, are not wide enough to cover the big tubs, so it made it a little harder to build, but not too bad. Before you build, make sure you have purchased at least twice as many tubs as the rack will hold. Nothing sucks worse than building a rack, and having a few tubs break, and then not being able to buy the same tubs.

Ive been giving thought to a rack system for a while now too.

My question is, if a tub is sufficiently sized (I keep small Bitis sp so its easy to offer the snakes up to twice their body length in floor space), appropriately ventilated, designed naturally (can be done) and translucent, would there be any objections?

I certainly wouldn't object Rob, haha. The only problem with naturally designed plastic tubs is they are flexible, so keep that in mind when designing it. The substrate will shift slightly if you pull the tub out far enough. Substrate, a few fake plants, and some small rocks, or better yet fake rocks made from a lighter material, I think would work just fine.