My new T. wagleri, T. albolaris & C. horridus

I purchased a pair of Sulawesi locale Tropidolaemus wagleri. My friend shipped them out on St. Patty's Day (March 17) & they arrived at my local Delta Dash terminal that same night Very Happy

I apologize for the quality of some of the pics, I lost my PaintShop Pro software, and I used Picasa, just doesn't have the same features Razz

Time to upgrade to D-SLR anyway!

Male T. wagleri
My new T. wagleri, T. albolaris & C. horridus 003

My new T. wagleri, T. albolaris & C. horridus 027

Female T. wagleri
My new T. wagleri, T. albolaris & C. horridus 032

My new T. wagleri, T. albolaris & C. horridus 044-2

My new T. wagleri, T. albolaris & C. horridus 053

I was surprised when my friend also included:

Trimeresurus albolaris Indonesia (male..female was in shed)
My new T. wagleri, T. albolaris & C. horridus 073

My new T. wagleri, T. albolaris & C. horridus 073

My new T. wagleri, T. albolaris & C. horridus 094

Surprise CB Charleston SC locale 09 Crotalus horridus atricaudatus
My new T. wagleri, T. albolaris & C. horridus 112

My new T. wagleri, T. albolaris & C. horridus 115

Great St. Patty's Day Gift I'd say.

real beautys courtney especially the wagleri , iam jealous lol

Thanks Stephan! Very Happy

She's a little nippy, not bad, though. I'm wanting to figure out a good cage set up to maintain air flow, and provide some sort of constant drip or mister on a timer or something. Right now I certainly don't mind taking the time to give them nice long drinks, but it would be nice to have a back up plan for busy days.

Guest

I really like the Timber. Stunning specimen.

Btw, it is just Crotalus horridus. No 'atricaudatus' Smile

As far as I have read, they took that out.....It is C. horridus for both varients.

Tut tut tut Courtney, you have been told! I'm sure you will not get it wrong in the future!

Best,

Dave

Since we're correcting Courtney, let us not forget that albolabris no longer falls under the genus Trimeresurus. They are now classified under the genus Cryptelytrops.

I couldn't help but notice you have the arboreals perched on a deer's antler, how delightfully redneck.

Guest

Great collection courtney. Very nice.

Guest

Brance Mauldin wrote:: Since we're correcting Courtney, let us not forget that albolabris no longer falls under the genus Trimeresurus. They are now classified under the genus Cryptelytrops.

I couldn't help but notice you have the arboreals perched on a deer's antler, how delightfully redneck.

That is also correct, I failed to notice that one!

Best regards,

James.

Brance Mauldin wrote:: Since we're correcting Courtney, let us not forget that albolabris no longer falls under the genus Trimeresurus. They are now classified under the genus Cryptelytrops.

I couldn't help but notice you have the arboreals perched on a deer's antler, how delightfully redneck.

Looks like I'll join in as well. They're not wagleri. They're subannulatus.

Sorry, but I'm with Courtney on this one, so go ahead and filet me too. Laughing

Call me a stubborn old man, but albolabris will always be Trims to me. I'm just glad I don't keep Trims anymore so I don't have to learn the new nomenclature, lol. There is also zero doubt in my brain that there is a major difference between a timber and a canebrake. And no offense meant to you other guys, but I damn sure wouldn't let a kid from the UK convince me otherwise. I mean, we're over here catching these guys in the wild, studying them, and keeping them in our collections. What the hell do you know about them, James? As far as the Wags go, I don't know. You got me on that one, Jon. Very Happy

Whether they are wagleri or not, they are very sweet looking, Courtney.

Guest

Derek you are most definatly right on the crots., and I am with you on the albos. as well. John you are correct as well they are t. subannulatus, and they are spactular examples if I do say so. Keep a close eye on the male they are very tricky and finacky as well.

Your not a stubborn old man Derek, your just an "old school" Trim keeper. Back when you kept albos they were Trims. I don't blame you for calling them what you do, it's what you've always known them as but unfortunately things do change. Call me what you wish but personally I like to stay up to date with things. Don't feel too bad though, I recently visited the Ft. Worth Zoo's new multi-million dollar, state of the art herpetarium and they had McGregor's vipers still labeled as Trims. Funny thing is, they had venustus properly labeled as Cryptelytrops. Weird.

As far as what the proper name for the buzztail goes, I have no idea nor do I care. They're not my cup of tea.

Courtney, as a keeper and lover of Tropidolaemus myself, I agree with Derek and TJ. The pair you have look good and hopefully they will bring you as much pleasure as mine have brought me over the years that I have kept them.

I agree with you in the case of Crotalus horridus/atricaudatus - that doesn't seem to be verified finally and there's space left for further discussions.
After PISANI (1972), who doesn't recognise subspecies, followed by ALLSTEAT et al. (2006) and MC DIARMID et al. (1994), others like BROWN & ERNST (1986) and recently LOVE (2007) defended the subspecies status of atricaudatus.
It's difficult to me too to see - in a taxonomical sense - horridus and atricaudatus as the same.

Let me tell you just one thing finally: taxonomical researchers are doing more than catch these animals and watch them in terrariums - they have possibilities and methods private keepers don't have.
Let's wait and see how these things will develop in near future - in my opinion the last word hasn't been spoken yet.

By the way: It isn't James who wants to convince you in this cases - in the case of Trimeresurus/Cryptelytrops per example it's MALHOTRA & THORPE.
You can follow them or not - and you're not absolutely wrong with using still Trimeresurus instead of Cryptelytrops - the species is clearly defined with it's synonyms too, but keeping on
using a name because one was born or started his snake career in a time when this name was current is not a serious criterion in my eyes.

It's curious that most people do not have problems with Cryptelytrops in other species like purpureomaculatus per example (to see here on VenomLand), but do in albolabris.

Cheers
Peter

Guest

Derek Morgan wrote:: Sorry, but I'm with Courtney on this one, so go ahead and filet me too. Call me a stubborn old man, but albolabris will always be Trims to me. I'm just glad I don't keep Trims anymore so I don't have to learn the new nomenclature, lol. There is also zero doubt in my brain that there is a major difference between a timber and a canebrake. And no offense meant to you other guys, but I damn sure wouldn't let a kid from the UK convince me otherwise. I mean, we're over here catching these guys in the wild, studying them, and keeping them in our collections. What the hell do you know about them, James? As far as the Wags go, I don't know. You got me on that one, Jon. Whether they are wagleri or not, they are very sweet looking, Courtney.

Derek,

I like to keep up-to-date.

Keeping them in a terranium doesn't substitute for knowing Taxonomical changes. - Everyone has different methods of saying/pronouncing things.

I appologise if I have caused offence, but, everybody will get something wrong at one stage or another. The genetics of Canebrakes and Timber Rattlesnakes may be similar, but, I am sure Wolfgang could drop by and tell us more whether they are, or are not.

If I am ever unsure about the current status of a species I just ask my good friend Wolfgang Wuster Very Happy

James Mintram wrote:: I like to keep up-to-date.

Keeping them in a terranium doesn't substitute for knowing Taxonomical changes. - Everyone has different methods of saying/pronouncing things.

I appologise if I have caused offence, but, everybody will get something wrong at one stage or another. The genetics of Canebrakes and Timber Rattlesnakes may be similar, but, I am sure Wolfgang could drop by and tell us more whether they are, or are not.

The first thing to learn about Taxonomy James, is that there are essentially two camps on the subject.

"Groupers/lumpers" and "splitters"!

Some members of the scientific community like to see everything at species level, with no troublesome subspeciation, others prefer to split things up into subspecies and species complexes, this leads to constant contradictions when researchers of opposing preferences reclassify the same groups over and over.

A taxonomist simply publishing a paper redescribing a species under a different generic or species name (or both if you're indulging in an overhaul!) does not make it necessarily "correct" nor does the most recent suggested reclassification become the most suitable or accepted.

New names may or may not be accepted by the scientific community (that's the messy part!) and different researchers may base their conclusions on firstly different perceptions of the definition of "species" (there are dozens of widely used definitions of the word species) and secondly different criteria and forms of evidence (molecular phylogeny might render completely different answers to a morphological study).

The short conclusion to this, is that there is no place for insistent authoritative correction of others when it comes to Taxonomy.
The scientific nomenclature we use to identify our animals is dynamic, so long as you can spell whichever senior or most recent junior synonym you find correct, others will likely understand your meaning.

P.S: I'm not a taxonomist of any kind, this is simply my perception of it!
P.P.S: I'm slightly the splitter side of centre Wink

P.P.P.S!

Gorgeous snakes Court, I'm especially in love with the second pic of the female!!! Very Happy

Sorry James, maybe I overreacted. It was late and I just saw the guys jumping on Courtney's case about the nomenclature and maybe my chivalrous side kicked in a little. My bad, didn't mean to pirate her post.

Guest

You big bully you!

WHOOPS!!

My BAD! I am sorry guys.
I don't frequent the forums like I used to, and I miss a lot of taxonomic change updates.
I missed Gaboons the other day as well, still calling the West Africans B. g. rhinoceros, instead of Bitis rhinoceros.

I certainly don't mind being corrected as it keeps me from spreading the incorrect names. However it does tend to be ill received by certain individuals because of the lack of experience, and past comments & behaviors.

I actually KNEW about the Cryptelytrops albolabris, as I have a C. purpulomaculatus (psycho snake) in my collection, and I am interested in eventually adding some C. insularis to the grouping.
I have no idea what I was thinking when I posted them as Trims. Blonde moment?

I was not aware of Wagler's changing at all. Guess I should pay more attention!

Crotalus horridus (Canebrakes & Timbers) are commonly referred to here in the US as a separate grouping, and I just wanted to differentiate the fact this is not a local Timber. Razz

In Arkansas we have Timbers, and you travel further East and find Canebrakes. They certainly are VERY similar, but those who have more experience than I can certainly list every difference. Smile

Well I got a great taxonomic lesson, and I appreciate the time you guys took to provide the actual papers where the changes took place.
Glad everyone liked the snakes.

Oh and about the deer antler..quite redneck! HAHA! That thing is older than I!
Arboreals settle down really well for photos if they have a good perch. A plant tends to overwhelm the greens of the snakes sometimes, so I wanted something that would not not detract from the subject. It's cheesy, but it works. I need to construct a perch of naturalistic branches at some point for setting up pictures.
So many projects, so little time!

Brance, I LOVE my Wagler's. Do you use a rain chamber or misting system for yours?

Timothy Sieber wrote:: Derek you are most definatly right on the crots., and I am with you on the albos. as well. John you are correct as well they are t. subannulatus, and they are spactular examples if I do say so. Keep a close eye on the male they are very tricky and finacky as well.

Thanks TJ! I've heard about them, and since this is my first pair, I'm really hoping I do well with them, or they do well with me!

They both ate readily, are alert, and I've been misting them 2X a day or using the baster to keep them hydrated.
My understanding is poor airflow & not enough hydration are the most common issues with these, so I'm keeping those factors in mind.
.

what an awesome snakes, congrats, hope to get my pair soon

Charlotte Goble wrote:: A taxonomist simply publishing a paper redescribing a species under a different generic or species name (or both if you're indulging in an overhaul!) does not make it necessarily "correct" nor does the most recent suggested reclassification become the most suitable or accepted.

I agree. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Beautiful specimens, and good photography work, as well. Thanks for posting this, Ms. Roles. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

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