WC vs. CB, Prices etc.

well, i hope nobody understand me wrong !!!!!

i don´t like the smugglers and wish them in the same bottles they put the snakes in.

but the only reason for their business is the price of the snakes. and here we can find olso a reason in our community. how often i was interested in a snake, a german breed, and when i got the price, i was shocked. i respect always the success and i also know how much work it is, to get offspring. but sometimes the price for a german breed is 30 to 50 times higher then a wildcaught. i still don´t by then wildcaught, i safe money and by them later, or wait for a better offer. but not everybody is thinking like me. so, maybe everybody can think about his prices. because when the price for a german breed is just a little higher then for a wildcaught, everybody will by the offspring. and then there is no business for smugglers.

i really hope that everybody understands me right.

Sorry friends, i was mixing numbers during writing this post and answering e-mails at the same time. of course it´s not 30 to 50, it´s 3 to 8 times higher.

Karsten

Karsten,

i moved your post here and started this new topic.

well, ill think i understand you point! but still - also money or the project (safe some bucks) does´nt make things right & legal.

you would not buy a stolen car, only because it is cheaper? would´nt you? there are certain things in life you cant just buy or afford! captive breeding in numbers could change high prices. and i dont think, C.albolabris for an example is somehow right priced with 20 bucks.

on the other hand, you dont safe money with buying wc snakes, who being shipped illegally, they just freaking die!

there is still a difference, between legally collected and shipped animals(even there are WC) and illegal animals smuggled in numbers like on the picture you could see at the other posting, dont you think so? its cheaper to send snakes in parcels together with T-shirts and goodies, compare to ship them officially, following IATA rules und paying for a plane ride as live animals, especially if you talking about venomous stuff. i pay around 1000 - 2000$ for shipping animals legal - other guys spend only 30 dollar, using the mail service.

the question is - what do we want? do we want our hobby keep clean and transparent, and secure what we are doing, or do we give a rats A** about what guys like my friends are doing, bringing us and our hobby negative publicity, especially by sending highly venomous snakes, unprofessional packed and transported - calculating the death of this animal into our mind?

my point is, i like to do what i do, whit out having all this bad TV, news paper and public reputation and news. even if that means, i cant have all i want!



cheers
Mario

Mario,

i understand and fully agree with your point of standing. i just tried to express how most of the people think.

in my basement you will find only to wc snakes. and these two are not smuggled. all the rest is cb.

and for sure all captive borns are the best you can get for your self and the nature.

like you said, c. albolabris is much more worth than 20 dollar. i am selling my albolabris for 40 euro and never had any problem to sell them.

what i thought was the sometimes inordinately high prices for some snakes. you, me and some others will maybe pay the price, but the majority don´t.

in this case my opinion is no demand for cheap, no business for smugglers. maybe thats one way to stop smuggling. another way would be to have harder punishments. for each dead animal, one year of prison. the price you have to pay, if they catch you is not high enough. the profit of the smugglers is still higher than the punishment.

and i fully agree with you, more offsprings, lower prices.

that´s why we are working so hard on reproducing our snakes. that is the only way to save the wildlife, what should be our first occasion. and only the second reason should be the money.

Karsten

nothing to add to your post Karsten!

thats exactly what i am talking about, thats the main purpose of this forum as well. by screening the good from the bad guys, we will try to assure we can bundle all experiences in order to raise as much informations as we possibly could. imagine, all the members here had together several hundred years of experiences - thats our biggest value! and building a network as always good as well, most of our members here has exchanged animals with each other. we know our selfs and we also know, we have all the same targets!

i am very happy with the outcome of the Forum so far. i receive lots of nice statements (thanks also randy!) it shows me, we are on the right way to change the ways of communication among members, no fights, no scams and we might be even able to change the way, some not herping peoples think about our passion.

there is nothing wrong with animal keeping, nothing wrong whit studying, keeping and breeding snakes, even if they are venomous as long it is done by good peoples who care for their animals and as long folks are responsible and reliable.


cheers

Mario

Hallo Mario,

I mainly agree with your point of view and I'll be the last person to tell you that you are talking nonsense.
However the first thing I thought when I read your topic is the same as Karsten thought. Second of all I know people who really shouldn't read your thread because then war will break out on this forum.
In Europe many, I repeat many, people think that you are exporting WC animals yourself.
In fact on snakeday (Houten, Netherlands) 2 years ago at least 50% of the snake on the herpaworld stand looked like....well lets say, in really bad shape.
A friend of mine ordered 1.1 Naja samarensis but refused to buy the snakes wich we're offered to him, because of the bad shape. He was offered another 1.1 (which looked better, just noserubs), which later proved to be filled with lungwurms. The animals survived after threatment, but will never be in good shape again. The other couple (he refused to buy) died within a few weeks.
I'm not blaming you for anything. I know your bussiness depends on many factors and people. I'm not saying that you are selling WC snakes. Don't get me wrong. But I think that a lot of people will think of bad words when they would read your thread.
I think conservation, in this context, is a VERY difficult subject.

Again: I'm not blaming you for anything. I'm just discussing the facts as I have seen them.

Cheers,

Jelmer

It's quite simple, the prices for CB animals causes the number of WC animals each year. That's not the way it should be but unfortunately it is. Last year on the Snakeday here in Houten there where several Parias mcgregori animals offered for a price somewhere between 750 a 1500 euro's. For some neanderthals that's a screaming sign saying that they can make some money with this specie and there you go, they start to smuggle the animals under terrible conditions. Same goes for wagleri's or any other animal you can think of. There is only one reason and that's money. Can you blame them? I don't think so, after all we all needs to make a living and we are not all that smart. We have to realize that there are people out there who do not concerned about animal welfare. The question is who are the bad guys? We? Or they? I think we, keepers and breeders, are. Lowering the prices off offspring or not offering animals at all of which the price can't be lowered are the only two options we have and both must be initiated by us.

I don't like WC animals either. Besides the terrible way these animals are transported I can't stand the idea that i put a animal in a small enclosure which once roam free in nature. I do have a few WC animals however, bought in times i didn't know better (or didn't think enough). But the last two or three years or so i only buying CB animals and will continue to do so.

Jan

Jan Koetze wrote:

I think we, keepers and breeders, are. Lowering the prices off offspring or not offering animals at all of which the price can't be lowered are the only two options we have and both must be initiated by us.
Jan

Red signed letters is the secret of the success

Hello Jelmer
Let me tell you one thing first: I do'nt think "war will break out on this forum" at all, that would be stopped by our admins rigorous at the beginning.

You posted some bad examples here, I' m not able to discuss these, because I was'nt in Houten, did'nt see these animals, do'nt know who took care of them between the import and the Houten show, do'nt know what buyers did with their animals, and so on...

I can tell you something about absolutely positive examples:
I obtained a group of Parias mcgregori 2 years ago, together with a group of Naja samarensis. All of'em are more than okay until today, none of the animals has seen a veterinarian (except one samarensis, which developed a tumor in its mouth and died 2 weks ago, but that's another story), and none of the animals has ever been treated against anything, theiy're just doing well and are unconspicious!

I obtained more snakes one year ago, Parias mcgregori and Naja philippinensis, that was one day before the Hamm show, I was there unpacking the Cobras after their arrival, and I did not see any snakes in bad shape, neither the samarensis nor the philippinensis.
With philippinensis (I got one pair) it was the same good story as before with samarensis, at this time the second clutch of eggs is in my incubator, they're just doing very well!
A second recipient of philippinensis told Mario (7 month later!) some story about animals infected with everything and sic to death.
So what? Healthy, well doing animals and moribund , infected specimens not only in the same shipment, but side by side in the same box?
Could there be any difference in terrarium conditions and general husbandry? Curious, is'nt it?

To me it's a feat to kill a Naja samarensis within 2 months, it's none to keep it alive and breed as well under proper conditions.
Just my 2 cents.

Cheers
Peter

1) To pic up Karstens topic.
I think what Karsten means is that some people here in Europe keep prices for CB of some species artifically high to earn more money and to safe their own buisiness, even if they are not very rare but hard to get, easy to breed and so on. An example may be Parias sumatranus. This species has a bigger distribution than Trimeresurus puniceus, wiroti and so on. We don´t have to talk about the price differences here in Europe between this species.

That causes two problems
On the one hand the customer side. There are created desires to get such animals, which is essentially ok. But if the prices never fall, although there should be breeding success of many, some people may get in the conflict of buying WC and in worth case illegal WC to a cheaper price and so they provide smugglers.

On the other hand – if the smugglers notice that there is a request, they will never Stopp earning money this way.

We all should know that this is a stupid way to get a wanted species, because you have much more dead ones to count – so you might pay the same if you buy good CB directly.


2) @ Jelmer - for e.g. my Parias flavomaculatus were in the same shipement, even in the same box and the result you can see in this board on pics. And I think a Trimeresurus species is not so "indestructible" like a naja species.

Hello Peter,

I understand that for every bad example there is a good example. I guess I don't need to repeat the fact that I mainly agree with Mario. But if you didn't see the animals on snakeday, and therefore can't give arguments about it, your reaction is pretty much useless to me (with all the respect)
My whole point is that I know that people have been disapointed when they thought they we're buying perfectly healthy CB snakes from herpaworld.
CB snakes shouldn't be filled with lungwurms and shouldn't die within weeks. Especially not after paying prices like that. I can ensure you that it weren't amatures who bought this snakes.
Again I'm not saying that this we're WC snakes, but I understand that some people will have doubts when they read Mario his thread about smuggling. Some people will think : take a look at your self (i'm not saying that they are right when they think that)
To be completely honest, I wouldn't buy anything from that stand on snakeday to, because most snakes just looked pretty bad ( I guess around 40 snakes).
It will be my words against others people words....but this is what I saw.
In other words, I understand it when people have their thought after reading a topic like that.
I am not posting this to harm Mario or anyone else. But when I read the smuggling thread, it raises questions. People who bought those snakes will probably even get angry. And I think, especially on a forum like this we should be able to talk about this.
Last time ( ) I'm not saying that Mario is exporting WC animals, I'm saying that people have doubts and that I understand those doubts. And for those people that have doubts, reading a topic about smuggling, the way Mario wrote it (wich I respect), looks a bit weird.


Cheers,

Jelmer

The import to the shows at Hamm and Houten was done legally with all the requested paperworks and in compliance with the IATA rules for animal transports, just as usual!

It's out of all reason to me to compare it with the subjects in Mario's thread, which are smuggling, illegal shipment and animal torturing practices!

Peter

Peter Zürcher wrote:

The import to the shows at Hamm and Houten was done legally with all the requested paperworks and in compliance with the IATA rules for animal transports, just as usual!

It's out of all reason to me to compare it with the subjects in Mario's thread, which are smuggling, illegal shipment and animal torturing practices!

Peter

Hello Peter,

I'm not comparing anything, I just want to enlighten the other side of the story (without blaming or insulting anybody).

Cheers,

Jelmer

wow, i get kicked my A** now. ok fair enough.

the snakes from last year in houten was not offered from us, as i have done the last export in 2006.
regarding the animals from us 2006 you talking about, well - i totally agree with Jelmer, as i have heard some terrible things about the conditions of, at least some of the animals as well from other friends. exactly thats the point, i was not shipping any single snake the whole last year.

i dont have any idea what was happening two years ago, all i know is - the animals left us in good conditions! regarding the parasites, well - we have very difficult times in identifying them as we have no laboratory or qualified veterinarian on the whole island. i told to everybody to check the animals after their arrival and have them treated in case. by the way, every animal - who was been lost ( i know of 1.1 samarensis ) and 3 mcgregori was been replaced by us - even it was moths later! if i would looking only on my business site, i would give live arrival guarantee and would say, sh*t happen. anyway, the last person happy with this situation was myself as you can think. everyone, was informed before the snakes arrival to have checks on parasites done. never mind, i understand the folks who dont take their ordered animals under this circumstances.

on a long travel, everything could happen (wrong handling of the shipment included), i know of that, and animals with normal amounts of parasites could manifest some serious problems if stress and wrong or to aggressive treatment is applied. few persons (two to be exact) ask my opinion how to treat the snakes. i gave them my advise on how to handle and treat the animals, i know some guys are very experienced but some has overreacted and the treatment they applied was to aggressive. anyway, everyone can treat their animals as they want, if they dont take advices, well then i cant help them at all.

you guys are right, sure - the punk in the philippines was blamed to smuggle animals, because since 1974 the legal wildlife trade is banned in the philippines. i have been accused to ripping off peoples (ask peter, how many times the "experts" was telling him, he will never see any animals and his money is gone because i am a scammer. well thats years back, everybody knows now, i am exporting legally (few) animals here. now, they need to find something else to destroy our reputation. to all of this guys, i have only one answer: take a number and go into the line - others are waiting already!

let me tell you, i give a rats A** on if somebody believes i am into conservation or not, i dont need to explain to nobody anything. all our activities here are founded with my own, private money, and besides thats more than most guys do. but this here is my forum, and i update my friends on our activities here, and will also post what i am thinking of peoples who been involved in illegal wildlife trade. if somebody is wondering about that or even gets affected, well - i apologize.


cheers
Mario

Hello Mario,

First of all, thanks for your long answer. It explains some things.
I think I dont' need to repeat the fact that I'm not blaming you for anything. It's not up to me to share an opinion about your business because I don't have any experience with it myself.
Though I had some sidemarks rising in my head and I thought it would be good to talk about it.
It will always be a difficult subject when you combine conservation with 'pettrade', although I understand the combination.

Cheers,

Jelmer

Jelmer Groen wrote:

It will always be a difficult subject when you combine conservation with 'pettrade', although I understand the combination.

Some things in life aren´t free and so you need to earn money first before you are able to spend it in conservation and wildlife protection. And if your own snakes help you to do this, it´s not to condemn.

Wow, I'm not anywhere near the European Shows or the Philippines so I have no idea what some of these posts are about, but I do have something to say about prices for CB snakes vs WC Imports in America.

Since many States here in America have made venomous laws so strict that many people quit keeping them, or the State or City ordinances have made it illegal to keep them, sales of venomous has dropped. Normally, when demand is less, prices drop, but instead, people are charging sometimes twice as much for venomous snakes to make up for the lower number of sales. If they sold their stuff cheaper, it stands to reason they would sell more, but sellers don't seem to see it that way.

I would much rather buy CB animals, but when people are doubling the prices for CB animals to make up for less sales or whateverreason, legally imported WC animals seem to be a better way to go, as long as they are healthy. Well, not necessarily. I have seen WC imports with rediculous prices as well.

Money is the root of all evil, but it seems it's also the root of happiness for some people. I would just as soon trade snake for snake, rather than sell, but many people only care about the almighty dollar, euro, or whatever currency they deal with.

About unhealthy snakes being sold at shows? I've seen it here. Even though they are supposed to be inspected before entering the show. Some people just don't feed their snakes as much as others do, so they are thin. Not unhealthy, just thin. Maybe because they have too many snakes, and can not afford to feed them often enough. Some people keep them in cages that are too small so they have nose rubs, especially if it is a WC animal. They seem to rub their noses more looking for the wide open spaces they are used to. I'm sure some snakes in the wild, live their entire lives with worms of some kind. Like Mario said, different things can bring more stress, which in turn can cause problems you may not ever see otherwise, including death. I used to breed dogs, and i can tell you, it doesn't matter how well you worm a female, her pups will usually get round worms.

Who knows how someone treats animals after they receive them. If someone receives a shipment, and they put those snakes in unclean cages, don't feed them properly, feed them unhealthy, worm infested, mice, rats, whatever, the snakes can go downhill, so when they sell them they look unhealthy. Also, take into consideration, the handling of the crates by the airlines. Animals left on the burning hot tarmac at the airport, can dehydrate, lose weight, and die.

Well, I've rambled on enough