It got me thinking ( hot species prices )

the thread below this one about the diversity of rules and regulations relating to venomous snake keeping and the general consensus one senses that things will, in the probable short term, tighten up, that one of the reasons for such tightening up is the extreme ease which people acquire venomous snakes.

I go allmost every year to Houten and /or Hamm and am constantly amazed at the low level of the prices for hot snakes. I see Crotalids at 50 € ( and sometimes, upon close of the event, at prices lower than that. I have seen black mambas at 100€, Schlegelis at 30/40 € ( and lower ) and the list goes on and on.

Generaly speaking, hot snakes are, on average, cheaper than a lot of Lampropeltis and Python Regius and considerably cheaper than most other non venomous species.

This type of pricing puts such snakes ( which in the wrong hands, due to age or simple stupidty, can be lethal weapons ) at the availability of nearly anyone.

And that, in itself, is an assured path to endanger this magnificent hobby, already surrounded by mounting criticism and frontal attack.



Miguel

Hey Miguel,

you're right. I'm wondering too, when I get in touch with prices. I would guess that the decreasing of the prices has its roots in the worth of the animals for the seller itself. Snakes have become a consumer product and follow the world market. And if the target group becomes saturated, the prices decrease to stabilize the demand. Thats really disappointing, but unstoppable.
When I will succeed getting offspring of some of my snakes someday, I'm going to set prices at a higher lever than usual. Also because I don't want to see my animals in the hands of beginners. I would be glad if some would follow me.

Best Regards.

Manuel

Both of you are right in many of the points you mention.

But: Even high prices don´t keep certain customers from acquiring snakes (or other animals) that are too big, venemous, fast, dangerous,... for them. That is a fact that I found confirmed many times over the years.
And all serious snake-keepers suffer from that andwill in the future.

Manuel: If you want to sell your (venemous or not) snakes at a higher price than the usual ones, 1. you must have some that nobody else breeds or 2. you must keep all or most of them yourself or 3. stop breeding them because you will not be able to get rid of them.
It´s a pity but it´s true, hardly anybody will pay a higher price for anything if he can get it for less from sombody else and even if your animals are of higher quality (bigger, healthier,...) it will not make much difference. That´s market.

Best regards to both of you,
Rainer

Sad but true....

i agree with Rainer.

I do not agree wiih that:
[/quote]I would guess that the decreasing of the prices has its roots in the worth of the animals for the seller itself.[quote]

Sellers can ask for some prices - customers are free to accept or refuse these prices, and finally it's just the market which creates price levels.

If i would create prices depending on my own worth of animals, i would have to ask 200 Euro for a young copperhead, per example.
No one would pay that, the only possibilities left are keeping offspring animals (that will end in big problems soon), stop breeding - or selling cheaper.

Beside this, selling cheap or cheaper must not mean selling to every idiot in my opinion.

Best regards
Peter

i have to agree with peter , prices dont stop idots from buying

the fact that snake prices drop does not only hit the venemous market though .
in houten python regius wildcolored where sold for 12.50 a head , cornsnakes for 5 and less .
thats very sad to see and aslong the makers of expos only look for selling as much tables as posible and dont look out for whats sold and what animals are kept like and certan rules are not enforced it will get worse
Manuel , your idea is a vry good one but aslong not every breeder will go the same way there is no chance you ll have any sucess with it .

This is a worthwhile discussion and I hope all members contribute in this Thread. In my experience, I can say that I rarely purchase snakes. I am and have always been far more comfortable with a small circle of fellow keepers who I know to be experienced and responsible individuals. From that small circle, live specimens are occasionally offered to me- free of charge- with an unspoken understanding that should I happen upon a live specimen of interest to a fellow who has given me snakes in the past, I will return the favour and give that specimen to him. This arrangement avoids the obvious pitfalls when commerce is a factor in the equation. We've seen the evolution- or degression, depending on one's point of view- with the 'hobby' in realtion to Ball Pythons, Corn Snakes, Boa Constrictors, etc. and we're seeing that same degression now with venomous snakes, as well(with 'scale less' Rattlesnakes and 'Super/Sun Glow/Cinnamon/Sulphan' Cobras, etc.). For me, it comes down to why it is we keep snakes in the first place. Do we keep live specimens as examples of what evolutionary biology can provide all of us for free or do we keep snakes because it's possible to make money from reproducing them in captivity and selling the progeny for as much as possible? Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

good point jon
i also breed python regius and other non venemous species , i do this to osmehow finance my whole hobby not to make money of it , baisicy iam happy when my income from breeding pays mmy snakefood and electricity bill.
when i hear people say they breed snakes to earn money i just laugh , only very few people can say the make a living of this and a good one at that .
but sadly enough lots of people seem ot think if they start breeding balls or whatevecolored cobras and rattlesnakes it will make em rich thats why there is so many of them out there wich in the end flood the market with poor quality anaimals and drop the prices

Stephan Niemann wrote:

good point jon
i also breed python regius and other non venemous species , i do this to osmehow finance my whole hobby not to make money of it , baisicy iam happy when my income from breeding pays mmy snakefood and electricity bill.
when i hear people say they breed snakes to earn money i just laugh , only very few people can say the make a living of this and a good one at that .
but sadly enough lots of people seem ot think if they start breeding balls or whatevecolored cobras and rattlesnakes it will make em rich thats why there is so many of them out there wich in the end flood the market with poor quality anaimals and drop the prices

It is exactly that. As a known Chondrohead once aptly put it: If you want to make a small fortune breeding snakes, you just have to start with a big fortune.

Mankind's mental framework is so tightly linked with the concept of entitlement to profit, that it is a rare individual that wakes up to its snakes procreating and does not immediately jump to the conclusion that he is a sucessfull snake breeder and entitled to a bucket of money as a matter of course.

We've all seen this happen with other species, be it exotic fish, be it dogs.

With hot snakes available at such prices ( the market forces in play, of course ), I do not even start to imagine the sheer number of snakes held in the worst possible conditions ( for them and their surroundings ) and the negative impact this will have on the hobby.

Miguel

Generally speaking, it seems like when an animal becomes popular as a pet, careless breeding tends to result in a host of disorders and diseases affecting the animal in question. Does anyone know to what, if any extent, this is the case with venomous snakes? Just wondering.

Thanks

There are certain venomous snakes that in my opinion that should never be categorised as cheap, like the taipans etc. The fact that they are so dangerous probably limits the number of people that want to keep them, and therefore keeps the prices high.

I will cringe when the day comes that they are available for 50euro at Hamm.

To quote the comic Chris Rock

Quote :

"don't worry about the guns, just makes the bullets so expensive that you will have to save up for a year to buy just one. You will then think twice about shooting someone with it"

That said, if someone wants a rattlesnake and it is 50 euros or 200 euros - they will buy it in the end. It may just take a few weeks longer to get it.

@kelly - there are examples or inbreeding with a number of species. The ones that I know of are Bitis Gabonica and Albino Python molurus bivittatus. You will often hear of animals born with one eye and other birth defects. I assume this is from a limited original gene pool.

Thanks Brett.

Jon Davidson wrote:

For me, it comes down to why it is we keep snakes in the first place. Do we keep live specimens as examples of what evolutionary biology can provide all of us for free or do we keep snakes because it's possible to make money from reproducing them in captivity and selling the progeny for as much as possible? Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Good point, John.

That's why I don't like to deal with colour/pattern morphs. Nature's way is always best IMHO.

As for prices, I think venomous animals should be more expensive all around the world. It's a matter of preventing impulse purchases. The more money someone has to spend on an animal, the harder they would have to think about the purchase. The animals are also better cared for, because who wants to lose a $500 snake to a disease from improper husbandry?

I like John's philosophy of having a network of local friends who contribute to each other's collections. When all my snakes are at breeding size, most of them will go to zoos because I believe that certain species like Atheris are under-represented in Canadian zoos. The rest will be given or sold to other trusted keepers and if I have any left after that that I can't care for myself, I will sell them for a higher price to experienced adults whom I believe can handle the responsibility.

It's a sad omen for our society that we value living creatures as a commodities with finite monetary value instead of beings with a right to live life free of stress and with their needs taken care of, and as an important part of the biosphere. It reflects our view of nature as a whole as something to be exploited for money instead of an entity that transcends profit and holds a higher value by virtue of its beauty and all the services its bounty provides to us greedy apes!

In my short time on this forum, I see that most of the people here understand this, which is quickly making this one of my favourite venomous reptile sites!

Peter Zürcher wrote:

If i would create prices depending on my own worth of animals, i would have to ask 200 Euro for a young copperhead, per example.
No one would pay that, ...

Might depend on the copperhead ...

Just kidding

Peter

I ask less money when i sell to someone i know and trust and more when selling to someone i dont know, though whats most important is how interested they are in that particular species and if they are capable of taking care of it properly.
Most venomous keepers can handle an juvenile puff adder and also take perfectly good care for one but what separates the good keeper from the less good is the value they set to the animal.
If the only value they see is what money they can make from it then they should not be keeping it, but if they have a genuine interest in those puff adders despite their low price then they are mature keepers.
I have been offered far above the standard price of puff adders for my subadult male because of his unusual pattern and bright colours.
In fact ive been offered enough too gain five times what i bought him for and the cost of feeding him so far.
So why havent i sold him? Because the snake to mee is worth more than some small profit and even if you multiply the price of a extremely cheap animal its still not a respectable value to set and not by far enough for me to part with an animal i find both beutiful and interseting despite them beeing common.

A very interesting thread.
Maybe complete disallowance of keeping venomous snakes could be avoided simply by making really dangerous snakes more expensive to keep. An obligation for an insurance e.g. could creep into mind here as well as taxes for keepers who cannot prove a long term experience with hot snakes.
It cannot be our goal that 16 year old kids can buy a Crotalus atrox for 25,- EUR in the internet and get it delivered as post package - and this IS the case at the moment. The age is often not checked properly. No experience needs to be proven as well. IMHO an unacceptable situation.

Exactly, Guenther. This sorry, and increasingly dangerous, status quo will have
to be changed.

The problem is, as always, that it will be corrected by people who have no idea about what they are correcting and how they should correct it, save by prohibiting.

The beautifull Rotweiler ( as so many other great breeds ) is going down that path, and so will, sooner than later I fear, our herps.

Great topic and good replies. I do however think there is too much emphasis on if its high priced, it will be taken better care of by someone who is extremely competent. I also think that there are relatively few breeders that make a lot of money on the animals that they produce. Its just as easy to believe that reasonably priced animals could open up the world of venomous reptiles to the next generation of herpetologists. I only breed a few species, but my goal is to half the current price with progeny I produce. I am picky to whom I sell my snakes and it is always face to face, so I can at least get a feeling about their level of experience.

The venomous reptile community is not a big one in comparison to the non venomous keepers. I think in the past it was a “difficult club” to join and you had to prove your worth if you wanted to be considered as a capable keeper. Nowadays if you can afford the snake that’s all that matters!

This topic has no simple solution. Even if the good breeders fix prices or make sure that their stock only goes to experienced keepers there will always be the guy who doesn’t follow the rules even if they’re for his own good. Perhaps licensing of venomous reptile keepers would help the situation and only allowing venomous snakes to be sold to licensed keepers who have proven competency, knowledge and suitable facilities. This type of restriction would have more positives for our hobby than negatives as it would help to eliminate the irresponsible elements.

Michael Burmeister wrote:

Perhaps licensing of venomous reptile keepers would help the situation and only allowing venomous snakes to be sold to licensed keepers who have proven competency, knowledge and suitable facilities. This type of restriction would have more positives for our hobby than negatives as it would help to eliminate the irresponsible elements.

Michael,

I think you nailed it. That´s exactly my feeling regarding this issue.

Nowadays - and I travel with Miguel, the author of the topic, to the aformentioned snake expos - the situation looks like a time bomb that may explode at any moment, at any (or several) young kids homes that, as mentioned above, paid 25€ for a very dangerous snake and had it shipped to his place by post. Or that bought that snake in Hamm or Houten or.. any the other shows around the world.

Will licensing solve the entire problem ? No. But it would help a lot, I think.

In Portugal we moved a long way in the last couple of years. For 17 yearas and until late 2009 noone could (legally) keep boids or pythons. Nowadays people over 18 can (except for the bigger ones - species that grow over 3 meters) , as long as the snakes are registered.
However, viperidae, crotalidae, elapidae and some venemous colubridae are forbidden. The minimum penalty for keeping any of the forbidden species is over 20.000€.
That makes you think beforing doing anything.

In the future, I hope the law may move a bit forward and allow the above families, under certain circunstances, subject to licensing and only by people that showed skills, experience and maturity to keep them. A similar thing happened with the so-called dangerous breeds of dogs (although the law is regretable, the principle is acceptable).

We´ll have to start working on that in 3-4 years time.

Guenter Leitenbauer wrote:

A very interesting thread.
Maybe complete disallowance of keeping venomous snakes could be avoided simply by making really dangerous snakes more expensive to keep. An obligation for an insurance e.g. could creep into mind here as well as taxes for keepers who cannot prove a long term experience with hot snakes.
It cannot be our goal that 16 year old kids can buy a Crotalus atrox for 25,- EUR in the internet and get it delivered as post package - and this IS the case at the moment. The age is often not checked properly. No experience needs to be proven as well. IMHO an unacceptable situation.

+1. Very true.

Quote :

The venomous reptile community is not a big one in comparison to the non venomous keepers. I think in the past it was a “difficult club” to join and you had to prove your worth if you wanted to be considered as a capable keeper

This still applies to some point i think. There is a distinct difference between venomous and non-venomous keepers.

The community is tiny compared to others and wannabes can be spotted from a mile away.

Miguel Tönnies wrote:

The problem is, as always, that it will be corrected by people who have no idea about what they are correcting and how they should correct it, save by prohibiting.

This is a good point. Historically, in my experience, reptile keeping in general and venomous snake keeping in particular has always attracted a fringe element in society. A certain kind of individual will wish to own a venomous snake for the same reasons that they wish to own a hand gun or 'pit bull' type fighting dog- which is to bolster a weak and fragile ego and define themselves as 'special' or 'different' or tough', etc. That public perception is reinforced by the ever popular 'Crocodile Hunter' type TV shows and the hundreds of thousands of internet/Youtube imitators. The relentless media campaigns of the PETA folks and their supporters who, despite their antics and media stategies, have raised some legitimate concerns about how reptiles in captivity are commodified, inbred for fun and profit and kept before and after their sale to the general public is another area of concern for responsible, private snake keepers. In my view, a licencing system is the most sensible solution to these concerns; although the question remains as to who would administer such a system. If we do nothing then the powers that be- whether that be federal, municipal or local- will take the responsibilty from us and either enact a complete ban on the private ownership of venomous snakes or enforce draconian restrictions that once put in place could be difficult to rescind. In my view, the best solution is for the community to regulate itself. A series of protocals, procedures, responsibilities, standard guidlines for maintenance and a code of ethics could be agreed upon by the community of legitimate private venomous snake keepers and no matter how difficult it may be to come to a concensus, self regulation is, in my view, far better than having the responsibility taken away from us and defined by politicians or special interest groups. Perhaps some of the fellows here on Venomland from Australia or Switzerland could provide us with more details or links on the permit systems in their countries? At the very least our community should have a reasonable set of agreed upon guidelines at the ready to protect our interests. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

I think You hit the nail Mr Davidson.
"Self regulation" would be the best which could be done. If it won't be done, we will face some sort of government regulation - and this will be definitely worse.

Thank you for your kind words, Mr. Leitenbauer. By doing a little 'googling', I came up with this link: http://www.preservevenomous.com/venomous_reptile_laws.htm , which has, in my view, some good, common sense rules. The sale of venomous snakes only to other license holders is an idea worth considering. This would address, in some measure, the most often expressed concern of the opponents to the private ownership of venomous snakes- which is the easy availability of dangerous reptiles to unqualified or incompetent individuals. A draft document by the community of private venomous snake owners that borrows the most reasonable regulations from the permit requirements of other jurisdictions is an idea that might be worth consideration. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .