It got me thinking ( hot species prices )

Price tampering isn't the answer. It's just an unnatural destablization of the market that people, properly motivated, will circumvent by seeking out dealers all too willing to look the other way if the buyers pay a premium that would still be under the artificially inflated price. It's called the black market.

In my opinion, the proper answer is the correct checking of documentation to ensure compliance with all applicable laws. If the dealer wants to be really responsible, they can demand that the buyer sign a contract stating that they have the proper means and experience to take care of the animal and that the buyer must have the contract co-signed by a mentor/teacher.

Alex Larsen wrote:: In my opinion, the proper answer is the correct checking of documentation to ensure compliance with all applicable laws. If the dealer wants to be really responsible, they can demand that the buyer sign a contract stating that they have the proper means and experience to take care of the animal and that the buyer must have the contract co-signed by a mentor/teacher.

The only problem with that idea is in areas where there are little regulations on venomous snake keeping. In some areas (such as municipalities in my province) they're either allowed without regulations or banned altogether. There are also no governing bodies that approve or license venomous snake handlers in most areas, so how would a retailer know that the person co-signing the contract was reliable? The unfortunate fact is that the irresponsible 2% cause the problems for the other 98% of us and make society paint every venomous keeper with the same brush, then all venomous reptiles become illegal.

From what I've seen, the web forums dedicated to venomous reptiles (such as this one) police themselves very well and quickly laugh out anyone who is deemed a careless, dangerous or ignorant venomous keeper. The problem is that these people continue to exist and keep venomous reptiles in the real world outside of the internet. I'm not a big fan of over-regulating venomous reptiles, but at the same time what are we as responsible keepers supposed to do when we meet others who should not keep these animals? I don't like the idea of just sitting around and waiting for someone to make a huge mistake that makes the newspapers and gets my animals banned.

Ideally, in every state or province where keeping hots is not banned outright, a state/province would adopt Florida-style regulations directing that any keeper of potentially dangerous snakes have 1,000 hours of supervised learning (or equivalent) in the correct procedures thereof. Further, documentation of imports (such as CITES papers) or proof of the animals being captive bred would go a long way towards eliminating an avenue of banning the hobby (that uninhibited collection severely depletes endemic populations).

Without trying to be too political, you don't preserve freedoms with artificial tampers or reactionary regulation. That road leads in all cases to the tacit, if not outright, elimination of that freedom. Besides, neither really works.

Alex Larsen wrote:: Price tampering isn't the answer. It's just an unnatural destablization of the market that people, properly motivated, will circumvent by seeking out dealers all too willing to look the other way if the buyers pay a premium that would still be under the artificially inflated price. It's called the black market.

In my opinion, the proper answer is the correct checking of documentation to ensure compliance with all applicable laws. If the dealer wants to be really responsible, they can demand that the buyer sign a contract stating that they have the proper means and experience to take care of the animal and that the buyer must have the contract co-signed by a mentor/teacher.

Please note, Mr. Larsen, that no one in the discussion has said anything about 'price tampering'. Your mention of a 'mentor/teacher' is interesting... I wonder if you could please tell us something about your experience with studying and/or keeping venomous snakes- for the benifit of the members who may wish to have a better understanding of the context of your observations. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

I've never kept anything more dangerous than a Western Hognose before. However, a great many respected hot keepers in America strongly suggest finding someone who actively keeps hots in a novice's area of interest and is willing to take on the responsibility of teaching such a person. In point of fact, doing so is iron-clad law in the state of Florida; a person must spend 1,000 documented hours working in a zoo or private collection before an application to keep venomous and certain other non-venomous species of snakes (among other regulated exotics) will even be considered and even then the applicant must convince a state Fish and Game officer that both his/her facilities and knowledge are sound enough to keep what they're applying for. That seems to me to be a fundamentally good and sound idea.

And please, Alex will do. I've not contributed enough to this forum, never mind the hobby, to be addressed as Mister.

Alex Larsen wrote:: I've never kept anything more dangerous than a Western Hognose before.

I see... and Thank you for your synopsis of what was posted earlier in the discussion. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Jon Davidson wrote:: I see... and Thank you for your synopsis of what was posted earlier in the discussion. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Hmm, my Snide Senses are tingling. And while my thoughts are generally in line with those expressed here, I must state again that I'm completely opposed to artificially high pricing when simple proof of license/permit would be sure to accomplish far more.

Quote :: I must state again that I'm completely opposed to artificially high pricing

Quote :: Price tampering isn't the answer. It's just an unnatural destablization of the market

Pricing is definitely no possibility to keep idiots and unexperienced people off from venomous.
I' m refusing to sell even high priced animals to idiots frequently - others may think different and do it.
On the other hand, many serious and professional keepers tend toward rare, outstanding (and therefore high priced species), whereas not all, but many specimens of "cheap" and common species are already kept by less serious people, who are uncritical and sell their offspring to even more unserious people. Many serious and professional keepers know about these problems and vote for a stop or a turn, but do not have an influence on this "lower" (in different meanings) section of the market.
It's all been gone too far already in my opinion - thousands of ticking bombs everywhere.
Fortunately, no noninvolved person has been injured yet (as far as i know), but according to Murphy's law this will happen sooner or later and trigger off drastic reactions by authorities.
I'm far away from expecting these reactions to consist of regulations......

Best regards
Peter

Here in the UK we have the Dangerous Wild Animals Act (DWA) which means that if you wish to keep venomous snakes in theory you need to apply for a licence which is only granted if you achieve certain standards and have insurance in place.

Even though it is a flawed process and far from ideal it does make it difficult to keep them.

It does not however stop those who wish to keep such animals without a licence as there are always ways of getting them.

I'm sure many other countries and states have similar types legislation and know doubt some will be good and other bad.

The licence its self does not make the holder a good keeper.

lets face it , we cant look in to the person we sell the snakes to, we can ask specific questions and decide by the answers if th person wanting to obtain an animal from you has some knowledge of the wanted animals or venemous keeping in gerneral if we ll trust him with such a animal or not . what he does once hes out the door with the snake we cant controll .
so should there be rules ? devenetly . what should they look like , well thats another question , but raising prices want do the trick cause even idiots have lots of money so that wont work

When I sell my venomous, I price the animals accordingly to what they are worth to me. More often than not, the buyers seem to think they are over priced. I politely let them know that if they can find them at a lower price, then why are they bothering to tell me to price mine lower? The situation is that they like my quality, but don't want to pay for it. I would rather not sell to these individuals anyway. When I get approached by a very knowledgeable that understands the quality of my animals and is interested in a puirchase, I lower my price. Why? Because I am weeding out the idiots.

Completely agree with Cliff !
I decide to sell snakes comparatively to the work a do for them....(forcefeed...etc....)and i only sell for the exemple some snakes who eat by themself.

Jean.

(Sorry for bad englisch)
I agree the problem but it,s nothing new.For yaers the price of spicies is lower and lower.Not only by venomous snakes.But the qestion is wy should you breed whith snakes that you only can sale to amateurs? €15 for a atrox is nothing news.And sombody with no experiance thinks cool a rattler for €15 Rolling Eyes

Tomany people breed with venomous snakes.The market is small and fast saturated..
And only we can do something about it.
Prices for mamba,s €75
And i buyt on houten png taipans for €150
I complain not care but if people without an understanding of these animals than it is now waiting for the first dead!

regarts danny

Jon, you really hit the nail on the head. It is up to us to keep the hobby to a high standard and to regulate ourselves. IMHO the state of Florida has the correct idea.

Thank you, this has been a great thread.
- Richard Orton

Good points. People can purchase pre-owned junk cars for a few hundred Euros over here, and there are still almost 5.000 people dying annually in traffic accidents here in Germany. So clearly, this as well as the venomous business is about responsibility, not prices. Nonetheless, people are required to have a drivers licence and insurance to operate a car - why not asking the same of venomous keepers?

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