Bad News From The U.S.

Unbelievable!

What exactly, Mr. Montejo, has the removal of venom glands in healthy snakes to deal with medically indicated masectomy or emergency blood transfusions?

Very good question Peter, if you study the second part of the statement you may understand.

Dr. Rainer Fesser has explained that there are two sides to every subject, i believe even more perhaps three, four or more absolute scientific truths.

It is best you agree with me that a reptile born in captivity is an agricultural product, just like any other animal produced to serve mankind in the way that he (Human) sees fit.

ill be more generous with my examples.

a) Wild feral pigs domesticated for human consumption and science, pigs anatomy is very close to humans.

b) Wild freedom loving horses broken and domesticated for human use and service even in a circus.

c) Wild freedom loving dogs broken and domesticated for human use and service even in a circus.



Peter Zurcher wrote: What exactly, Mr. Montejo, has the removal of venom glands in healthy snakes to deal with medically indicated masectomy or emergency blood transfusions?

im not a scientist nor a surgeon so i cant comment on the procedure of venom gland removal and it's efficacy, perhaps a DVM can. Both are medical procedures .

Addtl. if you don't agree with me that an animal born in captivity is produced to serve man , than i think it is unthinkable to take away it's freedom (akin to venom gland removal) and put it in a cage for your pleasure, or as in the case of a zoo to profit from it's freedom .

Albert J. Montejo wrote:

im not a scientist nor a surgeon so i cant comment on the procedure of venom gland removal and it's efficacy, perhaps a DVM can. Both are medical procedures .

Sure. Euthanasia is also a medical procedure. Lobotomy too. And maybe cleaning Your teeth too? All the same, so we can discuss it all together.
SMDH ...

Albert J. Montejo wrote:

Science is defined as a cold mathematical logic applied to a subject matter, in the hope of validating or ivalidating a common statement or belief.

Emotions nor ethics can coexsist with science

One of the most stupid arguments I've ever read here. Science NEEDS ethics to be useful.
What happens if science would be as You state is well known ... just have a look into Your history books or environmental (no)care, genetic technology (Monsanto is a good example), Fukushima, ...

Quote :

Both are medical procedures .

Yes.
I wonder if you can't see the point of difference, or if you just don't want to.....

Masectomies and blood transfusions are indicated medical procedures in order to save someones life - whereas venom gland removals are just mutilations of healthy animals.

Don't come up with strange comparisons like cows or tunas - no misdoing can be excused by another one.

Quote :

if you don't agree with me that an animal born in captivity is produced to serve man , than i think it is unthinkable to take away it's freedom

Very confusing.
How can i take away the freedom of a captive born animal?
And keeping animals in captivity does not mean they don't have any rights, therefore one cannot argue if they don't have their freedom anyway they don't need their physical intactness or you can feel free to injure them.

and let me tell you finally one thing as a normal user, not as an admin:
I'm not very happy to have an agent provocateur like you here, you brought too much confusion, too much disturbance right away from your start.
regards
Peter

Accept it as robust debate and nothing more, .

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CDoQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCaptivity_(animal)&ei=KNzwTbTAHuj20gGFv7CbBA&usg=AFQjCNGAHBvnoqe2YnBMlPE2ql5TwPNjKQ


Best regards ,

Albert.

Mr Montejo, it is impossible to debate with You.
Always when You have no arguments You simply put something completely unrelated into the debate, most of the time as needless as wrong. You then are again refuted and the game repeats again and again until You finally post a link to Wikipedia which also has nothing useful to add to the discussion.
It is like discussing with a little child.

Regards,
Guenter

LULz's.... Agent provacatuer ?, well i must admit new word for me ,
so i google it, and under Google images .

Thanks , i wish !!!

Best regards , Albert.

Peter Zürcher wrote:

'I wonder if you can't see the point of difference, or if you just don't want to.....'


'I'm not very happy to have an agent provocateur like you here, you brought too much confusion, too much disturbance right away from your start'.

I agree- with both points- and I'm sure that there are many other members here who concur, as well. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Peter Zürcher wrote:

Injuring these snakes just for the purpose to act with'em like a tomfool in a cheap, circus-like merritment isn't debatable in my opinion.
I cannot see any educational value here - or at most a counterprocuctive one.

Leave'em charged with all their weapons and possibilities, accept'em as they are, or switch to Cornsnakes (sorry to the Cornsnakes)

regards
Peter

Well said Peter.

It shouldn't really make any difference if a snake is a harmless colubrid, an intact venomous snake or one that has been mutilated in order to make it "safe"... a good snakeman should be striving to avoid being bitten, especially if they claim to be a "professional".

I have been keeping snakes for over 40 years and working with venomous since the 80's and I can still count on one hand the number of harmless / mildly venomous bites I have received and with the other hand, the number "real" venomous bites ... bear in mind that as a professional Herpetologist working for a venom research unit, I am handling more intact, venomous snakes than the majority of professional "snakemen". Most UK Zoos have zero handling policies these days. Given the tens of thousands of hours handling I have racked up, the ratio of bites I have received is very low.

In regards to venomoids, I have only ever handled one, a Thai Cobra that was on display in Liverpool Museum sometime in the late 90's. I was asked by the museum Staff if I could go down and help them with this snake as it had not shed properly. I handled the snake in the same gentle but safe way I would with any of the specimens at work.

I accept that there are rare situations were some people could justify the need for a venomoid snake... public museums, film work and possibly the "testing" of hexarmor gloves (something else I don't own or use as I just can't work in gloves, especially as I need to feel what I am doing while extracting venom).

I believe that there are some people out there that use venomoid snakes in public demonstrations and actually allow the snakes to bite them! This might impress some gullible members of the public but for anyone who understands that these once dangerous snakes have been mutilated in order to render them harmless, this is about as impressive as seeing a magician saw a woman in half on stage... everyone knows he didn't really cut her in half, it was a con trick..... the person hasn't "survived" the bite of a venomous snake because it is no longer venomous.... so really what's the point of of it all?

It would be a totally different issue if we were talking about the self immunisation guys, Bill Haast being the most famous example.... he really did "survive" countless venomous snake bites, no trickery involved there!

When you are working with real venomous snakes rather than "deactivated" venomoids (and your not an SI'er) you do tend to consider the risks more and always try and work in a safe manner!