Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix

just posting some pic's of the agkistrodon c contortrix
not much, but it's more about the pictures at the bottom that gives me a smile

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_8365

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_8365

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_8329

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 190634_155592291163726_100001388681115_327466_2035261_n

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 25092011128

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_8197

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_8332

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_8331

some pic's from last week, when i caught a lock on camera.

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_8281

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_8280

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_8276

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_8257

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_8253

I wouldn't say these specimens are A. c. contortrix.
regards
Peter

and would you mind telling what specimens you think they are?
and why... specific lines, markings our colorations etectra?

always intresting to discuss these things

Photo 6 seems indeed an A.c.laticinctus, and for the other photo's it's difficult to see.
Some (or one), it seems, do have the typical 'hourglass' marking, what could make it an A.c.contortrix.

I think that one of the problems with the 'Copperhead' is that there are already loads of 'hybrids' exist between different subspecies, as they even already exist in nature...
Which sometimes makes it extra hard to find out wich particular species are held in captivity.

Grtzz. Vinc.

thanks to vincent and his agkistrodon " bible" we agreed today that the new couple I bought indeed is not contortrix contortrix but A. c. laticinctus !

and thankfully the male i already had (c contortrix) was NOT the male that bred with the female!
so thas a relief.
the diferences are so small it's sometimes hard to tell, and many hybrids already exist
i knew the male had a bit off A. c. laticinctus and even thought about it being bred in his line somewhere as a hybrid, what has happend alot in the past.....
but i never thought it was a A. c. laticinctus itself....

i just put the c contortrix in his new own enclosure and updated my protocol
and now i'm going to studie the pictures to proof for myself it's really the A. c. laticinctus male and female who where locked

i don' t know what ill do when it apears to be a contortrix x laticinctus.

what was it that gave it away to you peter?

I would argue that they may be A.c. pictigaster, or A.c. laticinctus x A.c. pictigaster. In all the photos these snakes exhibit the classic inverted white 'U' marking on the sides, and the bands show the presence of 1 or two spots. Both of these characters, especially the inverted U, is indicative of Trans Pecos copperheads. The bellies of pictigaster (pictigaster means 'painted belly') tend to be mottled dark red/black or just black. If you can post photos of the bellies of the snakes it would help to further identify these animals.

The snake in the 6th photo does not look like pure pictigaster or laticinctus to me, some of the bands are slightly hour-glass shaped.

Regards, Alex

Sorry this is a bad photo, but it illustrates the painted belly and inverted white 'U' markings of A.c. pictigaster

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix Acp5belly

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix Acp5belly

Really lost it by now.... Smile

I've compared the coloration/pattern with photo's/drawings in the book "Snakes of the Agkistrodon complex" by Gloyd/Conant and for what I could see the're defenitly not A.c.pictigaster.
Indeed the example that you show is clearly a A.c.pictigaster, as you showed by the U-markings.
As said before, the chance that they are intergrades between more then two ssp. is also a possibility.
Spots on the side are also common on A.c.laticinctus, and A.c. mokasen, so it's difficult to indentify them by that.
Maybe Peter can post some of the pictures he made and showed me yesterday, so you (and others)can shine your light at those.

Cause I'm still curious, and learning about all the different ssp. and how to identify. But untill now I mostly learned that there are almost no 'real' ssp. left in the hobby, at least here in Holland, because of all the crossed breeding as a result of not enough knowledge about the species.. Sad

Grtzz. Vinc.

these are the pictures of the copperheads i've send to vincent....

ill make some pictures of the belly's later

that there are almost no " pure " animals left is true but it would be intresting to know what is in these animals specificly....

my guess would be that we never really can find out exactly

animal nr 1

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix Zijkantbijnahelelijf

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix Zijkantbijnahelelijf

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix Zijachter

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix Voorzij

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix Bovenaf

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_8514

animal nr 2

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix Copper2e

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix Copper2d

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix Copper2c

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix Copper2b

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix Copper2a

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix Copper2

animal nr 3

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 6

i wonder what people have 2 say about what ssp our ssp hybrids it could be...

as for myself

all 3 animals have something of c.laticinctus and c contortrix
can be both or a hybrid, but i dont think a direct hybrid but somwhere along the line

c. pictigaster on the otherhand i cant really see, maby the fotos of the belly's will say otherwise

very curiuos about what you guys have to say!

I still believe that these animals have pictgaster in them as they definitely exhibit several traits of pictigaster. The inverted U and the spots in the bands (Northern copperheads have spots between the bands, not within; and this trait can also be found in Broadbands and Taylor's cantils). The belly of laticinctus tends to be pinkish and unpatterned, and hybrids of Trans Pecos and Broadbands exhibit the darker, painted belly of pictigaster. Only belly photos will say for sure, in my mind. Alex

Variation in pictigaster bellies

pictigaster 1
Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_0646-1-1

pictigaster 2
Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_0568-1-1

laticinctus, or, at least, what I believe to be laticinctus but could be a cross
Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_0658-1-1

ok, it took some time becouse my camera was broken, but i got another today, and made some picks of the bellies.
i do agree with alexander nevgloski if i compare the pictures, but i will look some other things up, and cunsult the literature availableXD
but they definitely exhibit some traits of pictigaster but i don't believe they are pure animals ( of any ssp) ( if there are any left in the world)
i'm very courious about what you guys see, and have to say

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_8701

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_8701

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_8700

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_8697

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_8695

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_8688

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_8686

and while making the pics one of the animals had to be a pain in the *** and climbed the hook XD..
thats why a second hook is always within reach
Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_8691

Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix 100_8691

You are probably correct, Peter, that these snakes are not pure examples of any of the subspecies. I would say that they definitely have pictigaster in them, and some exhibit more pictigaster traits than others, which is what you would expect when subspecies are crossed.

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