Breeding Agkistrodon taylori

I have some questions about how to breed these awesome snakes. I recently got a pair. I was told it was a 1.1 Not entirely sure, So i need opinions..Here are some pics of them together and i was wondering how i would go about breeding them?
Breeding Agkistrodon taylori 398345_534933723200318_871244191_n

Breeding Agkistrodon taylori 398345_534933723200318_871244191_n

Breeding Agkistrodon taylori 2049_534933716533652_1516268628_n

Breeding Agkistrodon taylori 527634_534933713200319_1707643979_n

Very interesting snakes! For first look their tail seems strange for me. Too short for taylori and and the end of the tail is too thick.

If you compare them with these, you should see what I mean:
http://www.fororeptiles.org/foros/showthread.php?96803-Mi-nueva-adquisici%F3n!!!-Una-parejita-de-Agkistrodon-taylori-D

Tails look the same to me..this pair is just kinda bigger than the ones you showed me

Quote :: Too short for taylori and and the end of the tail is too thick.

????????????????????????

@Crystal
The left specimen on the first picture looks like a female to me, the right one could be a male - but i won't swear on that.
Can you put'em in a plastic or glass box and take pictures from the underside?
regards
Peter

I could yes .. Ill have to find something

Maybe this image will help to understand better, what I would like to say:
Breeding Agkistrodon taylori Agk_tail

Unfortunately it doesn't - at least not me....
What exactly should be proofed by comparing taylori-tails with those of species hybrids?

You can se 3 kind of tails on my image. Crystal's snakes (left) in comparsion with taylori tail (right) and hybrid tail (bottom).

If you look carefully Crystal's snakes tails and the taylori tails next to them you may notice that they are differing and resembling more rather to the hybrid tail.

My theory that someone in the past made a nice mix (bilineatus x contortrix) and then some of the offsprings were bred with bilineatus and taylori. If you look the top of Crystal's snakes head you may see also two spots or dots. These are very common in contortrix, but not in bilineatus/taylori. At least according to my informations.

I bought a pair of Agkistrodon bilieneatus howardgloydi but finally i get a Agkistrodon bilieneatus x Agkistrodon contotrix mix. I have discussed this with Laszlo and i've send him some detailed pics from my pair.

I think as Mr. Zürcher saíd some pics from the underside can help.

My hybrids have the same 2 little dots on the head.

Breeding Agkistrodon taylori Img_3534j06xb

Breeding Agkistrodon taylori Img_3534j06xb

Maybe this photo can help what Laszlo want's to say.

@Crystal: Sorry for abusing your thread!

regards

Marco

Hi Crystal very nice. I miss having Agkistrodon species it was copperheads that i had before A contortrix fantastic little snakes to keep though. Would love to have a few more in the future though also branch out onto tuer Agkistrodon species not sure what ones though i like them all. Very nice snakes you have there though welldone.

Quote :: My theory that someone in the past made a nice mix (bilineatus x contortrix)

You may be right with your theory - or wrong....

Tail length or tail shape ain't very reliable in my opinion, at least not in this case.

Agkistrodon taylori has the shortest tails/lowest subcaudal numbers of all members of the "Cantil-complex", some specimens may have shorter tails/lower subcaudal numbers than some specimens of Agkistrodon contortrix.
These spots or dots on the head of Crystal's specimens are white on a dark surface, they're vice versa in contortrix - dark on a light surface. Additionally, they're not that well defined in shape as usually in contortrix.
If you're doing a google image search for Agkistrodon taylori, you will find some more specimens having white spots on their heads.

I can see a reason in mixing bilineatus and contortrix in order to produce (expensive) "howardglodyii" specimens, but not in mixing contortrix and taylori just in order to sell'em as Agk. taylori. Doesn't make sense in my opinion, although i know that these things happen.

Any Info about how to go about breeding them?

Hi Crystal,
I bred Agkistrodon taylori (and Agkistrodon b. bilineatus) several times.
Unfortunately i cannot tell you anything special about how to breed them.
My couples lived together year round under the same conditions - except a slight reduction of temperature in winter and some more moistening in autumn.
I've been watching copulations in September/October, birth took place in May or June.
regards
Peter

That's the same for me.

They are kept in the same enclosure.
They copulated last night.
So the babies should be born in about May.

Breeding Agkistrodon taylori Dsc06814

Mine are together as well, hoping I see some sort of breeding

Quote :: If you look the top of Crystal's snakes head you may see also two spots or dots. These are very common in contortrix, but not in bilineatus/taylori.

We already talked about these spots, but let me add one thing:
These spots ARE common in Agkistrodon contortrix, but not unique in this species.
All members of the Agkistrodon genus, can have'em, but not that frequently like contortrix.
I've seen'em on the heads of Agkistrodon piscivorus (with proven origin) as well as on those of Agkistrodon bilineatus sspp.. See here a russeolus with clearly defined spots (no doubt it's a real and clean russeolus!)
http://www.venomland.net/t36-agkistrodon-bilineatus
scroll down - 5th picture

regards
Peter

Remi, do you have a better picture of your pair that is copulating in the above photo?

Hi Crystal

yours are almost certainly a pair - the left one on the first pic is the female, as Peter suggested. Don't worry about the tail length, it is highly variable. Although true that tayloris typically have longer tails (both sexes) because of caudal luring, in my experience with age these often literally wear off (for instance as the result of incomplete shedding of the tail tip). We currently have an adult pair of which the male has a much shorter tail than the female, and in addition the tail is thicker indicative of the successive loss of the tip.

Anyway, enjoy these breathtaking beauties!

Klaus

Thanks everyone for your response, Much appreciated!

Keep them seperated at all times,feed each one one mouse weekly. Second week of December after they have digested there last meal put the female in the cage with the male for no more than two days. Seperate after second day. Put back on regular feeding scheduel. Est 163-186 days offspring should be produced. Keep both snakes at est 75-78 degrees all year long. Cooling or hibernation is not required. This system has worked for me every time. Good luck

Thanks for the advice!

Quote :: put the female in the cage with the male for no more than two days. Seperate after second day

Hmmm.... why exactly only two days?
What makes you sure to know they have copulated in these 2 days?
What could go wrong, if they have copulated und one leaves them together for more than 2 days, a month maybe, or even longer?

nothing is going to go wrong,but with my experience it works every time. I also keep the snakes on white paper, so after copulation is over there is obvious semen stains on the paper,and on the snakes. I know many collectors are set in there ways and beleive you have to mimic the snakes natural life style. This is not always true.The downfall about useing natural substrate is you may not see if any copulation ever happend. Some collectors also beleive that if you keep your snakes together at all times breeding is more apt to happen,I call this incidental breeding,not as reliable. I do it in the two day window period,as long as it happens wih in the normal breeding cycle of the snake in the wild.I call this calculated breeding. I have also had success with certain snakes out of there natural cycle. One more thing to note is that in most cases soon as i introduce the female into the males enclosure copulation starts in less than two hours.

Quote :: I know many collectors are set in there ways and beleive you have to mimic the snakes natural life style. This is not always true

certainly not - but this might be one of the differences between collectors/commercial breeders and snakelovers or hobbyists whose goal is to see their animals in a environment adapted to nature as much as possible - and to enjoy as much as possible from their specific natural behavior.

Quote :: The downfall about useing natural substrate is you may not see if any copulation ever happend.

I do not see every copulation, but in many cases i have the pleasure to watch pre-mating behaviour over days or even weeks before copulation finally takes place. I do not want to miss these interesting observations.
I declare that i prefer to allow as much nature as possible for my caged animals, this may include and bring uncertainty of upcoming breeding results as well as nice surprises now and then - to me an essential part of working with live animals - isn't the fact that not everything can or should be planned part of the charm of our hobby?

Definitely these are different philosophies and different attitudes towards animals....

but back to topic: Agkistrodon b. bilineatus isn't a very representative example anyway when it comes to the need of "calculated breeding". I've kept a group consisting of two pairs in a nice natural setup year round for about ten years. Finally i had to separate'em due to an overflooded market - in most years both of the females "delivered" their litter....

By keeping the snakes seperated at all times except when breeding is planned makes it possible for me to control numbers.It has been at least four years since i have worked with any of the various Cantils. I have had the same experience with many different species. At this time I only work with specific Bothrops.

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