Ophiophagus bite

Paul Rowley wrote:

'Stuart, you raise some good points'.

As have you, Sir. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

I have been in contact with Richard today and he informs me that he can neither read or reply to anything on this forum as he is apparently Banned.

He told me that the trap box was not properly secured and the snake flew out and bit him on his hand as he reached in to change the water bowl. Regardless of if it was operator error or a faulty trap box, the fact is it was the sort of accident that could happen to absolutely anyone within the venomous community..... we are all capable of making stupid mistakes.

well he certainly cant answer the points requested by other members if he is

Paul Rowley wrote:

I have been in contact with Richard today and he informs me that he can neither read or reply to anything on this forum as he is apparently Banned.

Can't imagine how that might have happened..... The links at the beginning of this Thread will show that I supported the decision to ban Mr. Mastenbroek earlier from VL because Mr. Mastenbroek appeared to easily lose control of his emotions and say outrageous things when asked about his free handling stunts with live venomous snakes. Those earlier discussions show how hysterical sounding and out of control Mr. Mastenbroek can get with his foul language and his libelous accusations and statements against Mr. Zurcher and others using this site. My invitation still stands. I'm willing to give Mr. Mastenbroek another opportunity to speak here, providing that he can exercise some control over his emotions, refrain from using foul language, refrain from making libelous personal remarks about VL members and communicate in an polite, civil and adult manner in an adult setting. The decision to un-ban Mr. Mastenbroek (perhaps temporarily so that he may be given the opportunity to report on his bite to the community)is not mine to make. I'm just a regular VL member here. Any thought that could be given to allowing Mr. Mastenbroek the opportunity to address the VL membership here in this Thread is the decision of the Venomland Administration. I'd like to know what happened and how it happened( For example, how a cobra keeper of such notoriety could be bitten while replenishing his pet cobra's water dish...? Has the bite experience affected Mr. Mastenbroek's feelings toward his free handling stunts? etc.). Perhaps other VL users would like to hear Mr. Mastenbroek's story on this incident as well? Either way Mr. Rowley, I'm certain that all Venomland members appreciate your efforts as Mr. Mastenbroek's communications liaison during this difficult time. If you're speaking with your friend anytime soon then, please pass along that I hope Mr. Mastenbroek is well. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

This forum is perfectly moderated IMHO.
People should keep a reasonable amount of style in discussions.
He doesn't.

Mr. Mastenbroek is not "apparently", but in fact banned - for good reasons.
Consequentally banned members cannot write here anymore, but can read most forums, including the "news"-section, where this topic is still located.

We all can believe or not that this accident happened while doing normal maintenance work.
But that's not the point.
The point is, in my opinion, that a keeper who is/was well known for his unsafe, spectacular and repeatedly published handling practice has been bitten regardless of what exactly has caused this bite.
Once again, that's the way this accident has been presented in the news to everyone:
http://www.metronieuws.nl/nieuws/man-zwaargewond-door-beet-van-eigen-cobra/SrZmay!eastHhEISJaE/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter[quote]

I'm missing clear statements against unnecessary, profiling freehandling actions.
This subject has been sidestepped, relativized or hushed up consequently here.

Keeping quit about something is very closed to sanction it.

Friendships or "rope teams" are good, valuable things, but they do sometimes prevent us from seeing things as clear as they should bee seen.

regards
Peter

Hi Peter

so does that mean its a life ban or as mr davidson has said will he be allo0wed to come and read this and comment if he wishes.

In relation to freehandling points i am yet to hear a clear definition of what people would describe as free handling, Mr davidson mentioned a unrestrained snake but under those guises is hook and tailing not seen as unrestrained,

I dont believe anyone here has sanctioned or close to sanction stupid or unneccessary handling, merely debating handling techniques, nobody has hushed up anything, but you have also said previously nobody should have personal attacks and yet he is being singled out rather than generally talking about a techinque,

you comment of them being seen clearly surely is in the eye of the beholder , ie opinions differ from person to person without hidden agendas but merely a difference of opinion.

I believe it is sad when people cant merely disagree and still enjoy discussion anyways

Peter, I added the "apparently' myself as I felt it would be more polite than saying outright that he told me he was banned. Richard cannot defend himself on here so would rather not know or respond to what members are saying.

I have known Richard for a while and met him for the first time last October when I was invited to present a talk at a conference in Holland. Richard is a nice guy and certainly a "character".... the same could be said for Luke Yeomans, who I knew for over 30 years... I doubt he would mind me describing him as a "rough diamond" ... people who knew him could never fail to see the absolute passion he had for his animals.

I can't condone free-handling especially for the thrill or adrenaline rush... I know of one private keeper who I visited one time who was just plain scary in the way he handled his snakes... and after 6 bites in a year he came to the conclusion that it was time to give up venomous keeping.

I don't think unrestrained handling is as black & white as some people would like to think it is... I'll give you a few examples from personal experience.
Some years ago I was working in a London film studio with Mark O'Shea. What we needed was a head and hooded neck shot of a Sri-lankan cobra... I lifted the snake on to the set (it was at waist height) with a hook and then once the cobra had spread a hood I held it steady on the spot with my hand... if I could find the video then I could have pointed out the pink at the bottom of the frame that most people would not have noticed, but was actually the edge of my hand.... I held this snake to the spot for at least 5 mins... Mark was waving at it to keep its attention and the snake didn't bother to look down and wonder why it was being touched. On another occasion I was working with Tony Phelps to provide some extra footage for Steve Irwin's Africa's deadliest snakes... we set up a mock african hut in a room and used one of our large adult black mambas... filmed mice and snake separately and then switched to feeding a dead brown mouse to the mamba. I used a hook to lift the snake onto the set but once the camera was rolling i switched to just holding him with my hand.... the mamba reached the mouse and ate it while I held it on the spot.... the fact that the snake ate as I held it will give you an idea just how light a grip I was using.... In both cases shiny, reflective metal hooks would have caused shadows and glare..... and I know that I couldn't have held either snake on the spot with hooks or tongs and have gotten the footage we needed (didn't have Hexarmor gloves back then and I don't believe they would have given me the sense of "feel" I need for such work). Was what I did on those and several occasions since "safe"? Well, yes of course there was a risk, but it was a calculated and managed risk... I had the back-up of two experienced snake wranglers and we had already arranged with everyone what each person should do if there was a problem. It was never a case of "look at me, I'm holding a venomous snake on set with my bare hand"... I wasn't in shot..

Accidents can happen to anyone of us... an ex American girlfriend of mine put her hand in a viv to touch a Gaboon Viper that we both thought was dead... it wasn't ! (I'd have given it a poke with a hook but..hey oh). My last bite in 2002 was because my wet fingers lost grip on a lid and the baby WDB bit me.... human error... we are all capable of it. Steve Irwin was well known for his "style"... I guess we all thought he might be killed from snake-bite, ripped to bits by a croc or die falling off a cliff .... but to die from a stingray wound... who knew? ...... and the irony this time is that Richard was bitten due to something that could have happened to anyone.... yet he is being criticised because he is a known free-handler.

I used to ride race-replica motorbikes, pull wheelies, ride at 150 + ...(only ever knocked off once at low speed without any injuries)...... yet a couple of years ago I crashed a off-road trails bike at around 10 mph and sustained concussion, broken ribs, collar bone and damaged hip... these things happen.

like paul i have had to do shoots where the producers want certain shots in which the snake is certainly less restrained than normal, whilst i totally believe in safety and the use of equipment, which includes trapboxes i think you have to accept that this hobby , interest or job is more risky than many things, and we have to accept it, i still dont really understand why we can just concentrate on on our shared love of these creatures and get on,

Paul Rowley wrote:

Peter, I added the "apparently' myself as I felt it would be more polite than saying outright that he told me he was banned. Richard cannot defend himself on here so would rather not know or respond to what members are saying.

I have known Richard for a while and met him for the first time last October when I was invited to present a talk at a conference in Holland. Richard is a nice guy and certainly a "character".... the same could be said for Luke Yeomans, who I knew for over 30 years... I doubt he would mind me describing him as a "rough diamond" ... people who knew him could never fail to see the absolute passion he had for his animals.

I can't condone free-handling especially for the thrill or adrenaline rush... I know of one private keeper who I visited one time who was just plain scary in the way he handled his snakes... and after 6 bites in a year he came to the conclusion that it was time to give up venomous keeping.

I don't think unrestrained handling is as black & white as some people would like to think it is... I'll give you a few examples from personal experience.
Some years ago I was working in a London film studio with Mark O'Shea. What we needed was a head and hooded neck shot of a Sri-lankan cobra... I lifted the snake on to the set (it was at waist height) with a hook and then once the cobra had spread a hood I held it steady on the spot with my hand... if I could find the video then I could have pointed out the pink at the bottom of the frame that most people would not have noticed, but was actually the edge of my hand.... I held this snake to the spot for at least 5 mins... Mark was waving at it to keep its attention and the snake didn't bother to look down and wonder why it was being touched. On another occasion I was working with Tony Phelps to provide some extra footage for Steve Irwin's Africa's deadliest snakes... we set up a mock african hut in a room and used one of our large adult black mambas... filmed mice and snake separately and then switched to feeding a dead brown mouse to the mamba. I used a hook to lift the snake onto the set but once the camera was rolling i switched to just holding him with my hand.... the mamba reached the mouse and ate it while I held it on the spot.... the fact that the snake ate as I held it will give you an idea just how light a grip I was using.... In both cases shiny, reflective metal hooks would have caused shadows and glare..... and I know that I couldn't have held either snake on the spot with hooks or tongs and have gotten the footage we needed (didn't have Hexarmor gloves back then and I don't believe they would have given me the sense of "feel" I need for such work). Was what I did on those and several occasions since "safe"? Well, yes of course there was a risk, but it was a calculated and managed risk... I had the back-up of two experienced snake wranglers and we had already arranged with everyone what each person should do if there was a problem. It was never a case of "look at me, I'm holding a venomous snake on set with my bare hand"... I wasn't in shot..

Accidents can happen to anyone of us... an ex American girlfriend of mine put her hand in a viv to touch a Gaboon Viper that we both thought was dead... it wasn't ! (I'd have given it a poke with a hook but..hey oh). My last bite in 2002 was because my wet fingers lost grip on a lid and the baby WDB bit me.... human error... we are all capable of it. Steve Irwin was well known for his "style"... I guess we all thought he might be killed from snake-bite, ripped to bits by a croc or die falling off a cliff .... but to die from a stingray wound... who knew? ...... and the irony this time is that Richard was bitten due to something that could have happened to anyone.... yet he is being criticised because he is a known free-handler.

I used to ride race-replica motorbikes, pull wheelies, ride at 150 + ...(only ever knocked off once at low speed without any injuries)...... yet a couple of years ago I crashed a off-road trails bike at around 10 mph and sustained concussion, broken ribs, collar bone and damaged hip... these things happen.

6 bites in one year,,,at least he done the right thing eventually,,,,, especially if he was only a hobbyist

[/quote] 6 bites in one year,,,at least he done the right thing eventually,,,,, especially if he was only a hobbyist[/quote]

Just checked my data for 2006 and could only find 4 bites for him though I did think it was 6... either way too many bites for a private keeper me thinks.

think it was 5 paul, think there was one that didnt get treatment

I can understand how some people may feel about "free-handlers" and the possible damage it could do to the "hobby", but lets not forget that the law makers, the local councils and those responsible for issuing permits or licences have already been conditioned, rightly or wrongly as to what snake wranglers do via TV programmes ... for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXh0rLQPK5g
(might be a legend but when did you regularly see him use a hook?)

or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AQ1wlxwW2M
(and when I first saw this on TV, I was yelling at the screen "he's going to get bit, he's going to get bit.. see, told ya")

No disrespect to either of those guys of course.... each to their own.

i thought that was you in the vids paul lolol , its quite an interesting debate on how restrained a snake should be, but surely also into this debate comes those keepers who have venomous who never touch their snakes , i have come across keepers on wont take out the animals for maintenance or a bad shed, but when needed such as first aid to the snake, the keeper is out of practise and doesent like dealing with them, i have even heard of people who get other people round to deal with them, this surely is nearly as unsafe as those who free handle asn there very out of practise,

Paul Rowley wrote:

I can understand how some people may feel about "free-handlers" and the possible damage it could do to the "hobby", but lets not forget that the law makers, the local councils and those responsible for issuing permits or licences have already been conditioned, rightly or wrongly as to what snake wranglers do via TV programmes ... for example:

I agree that the general public as well as law makers, local councils and those responsible for issuing permits or licences may have indeed been 'conditioned' as to what these celebrity 'snake experts' do on their tv shows and through social media with live venomous snakes( 'Don't try this at home'). Perhaps there's an opportunity to demonstrate a different, safer, more mature and humane method for securing an unrestrained live specimen( beyond the chase them down, jump on their backs and lift them in the air by their tails methodology) when it's genuinely necessary to secure a live specimen... Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

actually youve brought up a good point jon, even within unrestrained handling techniques certainly some are more risky than others

pete blake wrote:

actually youve brought up a good point jon, even within unrestrained handling techniques certainly some are more risky than others

Yes. Here's a couple of additional cobra links: http://www.venomland.net/t4000-king-cobra-video-from-agumbe ; http://www.venomland.net/t5683-why-or-what-topic-should-i-use ; http://www.venomland.net/t5506-sometimes-these-exercises-go-wrong

yes interesting clips, of course certainly for the gentlemen whose name i think is suresh with a snake in the field i think most people would agree that equipment in that situation would be beneficial, you can also clearly see he gets distracted when speaking to someone in the audience, this can happen to anyone if educational talks are done, i remember seeing george van horn having a cobra do something un predicted and nearly came a cropper, how ever i have to say his eyes were never leaving the snake and could be although i dont know for sure why he no longer talks through his venom extraction displays, be interesting to get pauls point of view on this as he does venom extractions in front of people.

pete blake wrote:

yes interesting clips, of course certainly for the gentlemen whose name i think is suresh with a snake in the field i think most people would agree that equipment in that situation would be beneficial, you can also clearly see he gets distracted when speaking to someone in the audience, this can happen to anyone if educational talks are done, i remember seeing george van horn having a cobra do something un predicted and nearly came a cropper, how ever i have to say his eyes were never leaving the snake and could be although i dont know for sure why he no longer talks through his venom extraction displays, be interesting to get pauls point of view on this as he does venom extractions in front of people.

I've been doing venom extractions in front of people for many years, often while being filmed either by visitors with camera phones or professional TV companies (that always adds a little to the stress a little because if anything goes wrong its going to be caught on film). I have have plenty of practise and if I suddenly stop talking it simply means that I have had to concentrate a little more... maybe its because I have to reposition my grip or the snake starts twisting on me and I have to sort out the situation. I find it easy enough to ignore all the faces gawping at me through the window. Once I have the snake secure and I am ready to extract venom, I will then look at the visitors and tell them to get ready with their cameras as I am about to bring the snake up to the petri dish. We have a microphone on our side of the window so the people watching can hear what we are saying, but there is no provision for the visitors to talk back to us and we purposely designed the room this way.

Venom extraction from Nubian spitting cobra

615390_4378182744536_773700869_o by Hotherps, on Flickr



574581_10150805053641397_413852097_n by Hotherps, on Flickr
Yours truly displaying Nubian spitting cobra

Hi all,

Dealing with elapids in the field is very different to dealing with them in captivity. To attempt to apply all of the same principals when you capturing highly mobile snakes will mean lots of missed snakes.

While it is relatively easy for someone working with elapids to get an understanding for it, unless you capture many yourself its can be hard to really know the ins and outs of wild capture. It is definitely not the same as working in captivity.

Cheers,
Scott

would you say then scott that a snake in the field it is more important to use equipment when catching,

HI Pete,

The differences when working in the field as opposed to captivity are environmental. Terrain, weather, time of day/night, micro habitat location all come into play and for the most part you need to adjust to suit.

For example on one tool rack in the room I have 6 different hooks, a deflection shield, a hoop bag, 3 sets of forceps, a set of tubes, 2 600mm flex grabbers (great for feeding rodents) and two sets of snake crushers.

I don't take all of that into the field. Depending on the activity I usually take 3 compression bandages, an epipen, antihistamine tablets, a hoop bag, cable ties, a 18 inch hook and sometimes a 36' hook and a set of tubes.

As a result you adapt to the situation, possibly using tools or not. For simple capture, a hoop bag and hook will catch most snakes.

Cheers,
Scott