Venom Defender Gloves in Hamm

Hi

Does anybody know if the gloves now tested by KingCobraSanctuary.com with the big O. hannah were with a glove sold in Hamm (....the Pakistan production)?

I'm very interested what comes out in this story, because i thought about purchasing such gloves in the future...

Best regards

It is really interesting. As some pointed out, such an insurance should be seen as an additional safety.

I won't drive faster in a car with airbag than in a car without.
And if I'd been a skydiver and someone offered me the safest possible reserve parachute I'd still carry a main parachute with me ...

Some people seem to think, they can throw some safety rules overboard because the now use a glove.

@Markus

As I understood the seller the Gloves with the Pakistan Label are for 100% identical with these ones with the US Label.

And the new Test has been made we gloves of the Charge which has been sold in Hamm.

These gloves may be snakeproof when empty. In the same case working leather gloves can be equally safe. Surface of the glove is bending under pressure of the fang. But when you have your hand in the glove, surface does not bend. When the fang presses on your finger or hand is totally different than on empty glove. Especially if puncture comes from an angle between 30-60 degrees and, from large sized fang. From large Viper, Lancehead or Rattlesnake for example. Those gloves probably withstand a bite from smal cobra or European Viper speces, for else... The test would have to be performed with some gel or something imitating human hand and bones. Snake fang with counter pressure can penetrate the surface of the glove quicker than when empty. The force of the fang is than concentrated on part of finger or hand.

Regards, BKK

Quote :

These gloves may be snakeproof when empty.

The gloves was retested with a hand dummy at all sides. ( O. hannah )

Bostjan Kraner wrote:

Especially if puncture comes from an angle between 30-60 degrees and, from large sized fang. From large Viper, Lancehead or Rattlesnake for example. Those gloves probably withstand a bite from smal cobra or European Viper speces, for else...

The length of the fang is irrelevant, it will be sharpness of the tip, angle and especially pressure that count.

Guenter Leitenbauer wrote:

'Some people seem to think, they can throw some safety rules overboard because the now use a glove'.

I agree. In my view, the use of gloves should only be considered as a secondary safety measure. The manufacturer is clear that these gloves are puncture resistant- not pucture proof- and as such, they should be used accordingly. Sincerely, Jon .

Fabian Dirks wrote:

Quote :

These gloves may be snakeproof when empty.

The gloves was retested with a hand dummy at all sides. ( O. hannah )

Not with a hand dummy, but with latex gloves full of colored water. My hands don't look like that, and yours?...

Anyway, I can't trust to a glove... I agree with many of you, gloves are a secondary safety measure, not more.

I also think that water and ice can replace a hand.

Regards, BKK

Quote :

Not with a hand dummy, but with latex gloves full of colored water. My hands don't look like that, and yours?...

I would call it a dummy, but you can cut your hand off instead and replace it as a real hand
At auto-crashes you use dummys,too - not real persons - and they look quite different

Fabian Dirks wrote:

Quote :

Not with a hand dummy, but with latex gloves full of colored water. My hands don't look like that, and yours?...

I would call it a dummy, but you can cut your hand off instead and replace it as a real hand
At auto-crashes you use dummys,too - not real persons - and they look quite different

that's an idea! I will think about, but I promises nothing!

What I mean is that a latex glove haven't the same resistance that a real hand. I just say that perhaps this test is not so convincing.

Anyway, I understand the interest if gloves for field, but in snake room or photography, but in a snake room, I prefer hooks. That's my opinion, and again, gloves must be a secondary safety measure.
Those gloves are sold to be puncture resistant, not puncture proof.


Edit: Sorry, I didn't see that the test was with frozen water...

I know Richard for quite some years now. I wasn't at the scene when this incident happened though so I'm not the one to judge what happened.
I agree that letting a snake bite in the glove while you are wearing it might not be the smartest thing to do, however it doesn't change Richard's story.

What really strikes me is that the dealers of this gloves talk about a hoax and false claims of product faillure .
To me it doesn't rhyme with the fact that these gloves are not considered to be puncture proof but puncture resistant. If they are just puntcure resistant, then how can anyone come to the conclusion that it is a hoax based on this test we've seen on video?
Based on what I've read so far I think that, like Wolfgang already said, it is really is a bit harsh to judge like that.
What makes it even more strange to me is the claim that has been removed from kingcobrasanctuary.com which explained the difference between the gloves from Pakistan and the ones from the US.
It would be nice if anyone could clear some things up.

Cheers,

Jelmer

Hello everybody,

Let me introduce myself shortly,
Don’t mind my language as it has been about 22 years ago that I had to speak and write it daily.

I’m the person who was making the pictures when it happened.
I don’t have anything to win from the start, all non-profit.

The reason to make the pictures was for some promotion for the people who sell the gloves.
Even I was convinced the gloves would be bite-proof.
I have seen the movies several times, spoke the person who was selling them at Hamm, actually, spending some great time that day.
Nice people, and I still believe that everybody believed they were bite-proof.

Anyway, coming back from Hamm, Richard was driving and on the way back we were convinced to make the pictures without any risk.
It’s my profession to make pictures since ’86, used a Nikon D300 and all in .nef (RAW) and .jpg files.
I’m specialized in predators, if possible in the original habitat.

I’ve seen it with my two eyes happening, there is no involvement of photoshop or what so ever.
The pictures are what they are, so is the blood on Richard’s finger.
The first thing that happened after Richard said that the Naia Kaouthia ( where does the “J’’ come from in Latin, doesn’t exist…?)came trough was *big bliep* , then we discussed how long it would take to get in the hospital if necessary, it took about 2 minutes thinking and then we both said :
’’There are more people who have bought these gloves.’’, Richard picked up the phone and started callin the UK.
I was keeping time since the bite.
I took about 60 pictures, with the different snakes on the gloves, I was most surprised that the crotalus could not go through it.

The main reason why we called the UK was to get in contact with the other people as most of them would not even be home, it was about 19:15 as I can see by the pictures I took.
(Camera has a difference of 1 hour).
Richard wrote down some info from the people who had bought the gloves that day, receiving from the people who sold them at Hamm.
He was calling a lot of people to track down the phone numbers etc. from those who bought the gloves to prevent the worst case scenario.
We were afraid that something might happen with someone else, which could end up in a position were nobody wants to be.

I still believe that the people who make, manufacture, sell etc. these gloves are convinced that they are perfect.
Could Richard be so unlucky that the Kaouthia would have found the only weak point of the glove?
I don’t believe that.
Is it possible that it is a hoax?
Not what I have seen.
Have I seen it wrong?
Strange, everybody who has seen the pictures says the same.

Then it must have been murphy’s law…
No, than it would have had an other ending.
As what I have seen, from very nearby, its not the discussion if it was a smart thing what had happened, Richard was lucky it has been a dry bite.
Let’s hope it will prevent worse.
The pictures are stored on different hard disks to prevent a pc crash and get lost.
There is for me a good lesson, taking pictures in both .nef and .jpg to prevent a discussion about photoshop or something like that

There is no winning situation, only losers in this ‘game’ if it goes wrong.
Let’s learn from it.
The good news is that it’s always better to avoid these situation, which can be seen on the pictures.

Richard is not lying or making a nicer or worst story than what had happened.
Yes, he was angry, maybe also in his expression.
Place it the other way around, how would you react if you had a bite from a Kaouthia?
This is just what I’ve seen, heard and smelled in person, first degree…

And me?
I’m just an eye witness with a camera and only to lose some nice people I have met at Hamm.

Oh, I will introduce myself later…

Kind regards,


R.L.Smit (Rob)

Hello everyone,

I kept quit for a while because I expected the compnay would pick up this problem and work on it.

But it turned out totally different than I hoped for and expected. Instead of looking at the problem they were not responding on phonecalls and email. this toke 2 days. and than I saw the post on venomland and that the warnings were changed in Richard the Liar.

The night the bite true happend Luke Yeomans from kingcobrasanctuary sended me e-mail. In which he says in words I do not use on this forum that the gloves were different and they have been shitted by the company that sold them to snakeprofessionals.
In this e-mail he sended me also a picture of the label on the glove that he used for his video.

ROb the guy that took the picture took a picture of the label of the dangerous gloves both labels are shown below.

The label of the gloves Luke uses in his videos



The label of the Pakistan made danger gloves I got bit true



Further I will not defend myself on the fact Luke Yeomans from Kingcobrasanctuary and Clem and Maureen from snakeprofssionals.com tell I'm a liar. first as I know what happend and there was non-profit and just wanted to help them out as they asked me to. Just because I liked them otherwise I would not say I make advertisment for you guys and give you space at my very small table on the Hamm show.

I will keep everyone updated and if I feel to or if the need is their for the whole story nothing spared all open even things that I do not want people to.
Than I will consider to make all mail corresponce availeble.

I think the most important thing is that everybody now know that I in person do not trust the gloves and if you want gloves like that order them straigth from Hexarmor or true midwest as they should have the real good gloves.
No body have to listen all can think its a hoax but when a accident happens and its not a dry bite I still can sleep as I did what I think I needed to do.

with kind regards

Richard Mastenbroek

Hello everyone I've been concerned about how this thread has been developing so I been doing some digging of my own namley about the fabric that offers the resistance to puncture. this is known as Superfabric a registered trade mark and is not actually manufactured by Hexarmor but by a company called Higher Dimension Research (HDR) which is a company based in Minesota USA this fabric is used by many different companies in a wide range of applications you could compare this association with products such as Goretex where it is used under licence by a huge range of different companies, another far more common example would be Nylon.
if you look at the two photo's offered by Richard they state they are BOTH made in Pakistan My instinct tells me they are both identical. now I hope our American friends will forgive me when I say the Americans can't resist the oppurtunity to fly thier flag so products intended for the US Market which contain US based products in this case Superfabric love to advertise so . I'm sure this helps to secure sales in the USA such is patriotism . the term "assembled in Pakistan" would be seen differently to "manufactured in Pakistan" essentialy they mean the same thing Superfabric is made in the USA the gloves are assembled/manufactured using imported Superfabric in Pakistan. and I'm guessing that gloves intended for other world markets carry the dumbed down version label. but in fact are exactly the same.

so it's not about where the gloves are made more about are they manufactured to the same specifications my guess is they are. that would be something for Hexarmor to answer.

but would also stress again these gloves are puncture resistant not puncture proof (if they were theyed have a job and a half sewing them together!

cheers everybody stay cool Tim.

Looking at the website of kingcobrasanctuary I missed the first warning. And even now they give no response to any contact by anyone that tries to.

I will quote the post missing.

Quote :

WARNING!

We have just discovered that the protective material used in the manufacture of the Hexarmor gloves ‘super fabric’ that we first tested at the IHS meeting in 2007, and again at the King Cobra Sanctuary in 2010 is no longer manufactured in the USA. Instead they are now being made in Pakistan where the gloves are assembled. These gloves are still sold as the Hercules R8E-3180 but now only
These gloves are still sold as the Hercules R8E-3180 but now only have the protective material on the palm, side and knuckle.

We would strongly recommend that Hexarmor gloves manufactured outside of the USA are not used as protection against venomous snake bites. Check the small label on the inside of the gloves. The Hercules R8E-3180 gloves that we have tested and featured previously on this web

No explaination at all and the gloves are still here at my house.

with kind regards

Richard Mastenbroek

okay Richard I may be wrong but I can't help thinking the original statement on the King Cobra sanctuary was a misunderstanding of what the label says hence the removal from the website
maybe the moderators would like to invite representitives from HDR and hexarmor to clarify this in a post

the label on your pair of gloves does say "with" superfabric
and even if it was Pakistani made Superfabric as a patent it should still be up to the same specification as any other manufactured superfabric. thats the whole point of a patented idea a uniform consistancy

cheers Tim

Quote :

maybe the moderators would like to invite representitives from HDR and hexarmor to clarify this in a post

already done on wednesday, 9. 15., by e-mail to the company:

Dear Sirs

I’m an admin of a venomous discussion board entitled „VenomLand“
www.venomland.net

We have the following discussion/thread about an „accident“ with Venom Defender Gloves on our site.
http://www.venomland.net/general-venomous-snake-keeping-f2/venom-defender-gloves-in-hamm-t2961.htm#19599

May i ask you for a statement on our site, as soon as you know what really happened?

This could be done by yourself (registering on our site) or by e-mail.

Thank you

Best regards
VenomLand team
Peter Zürcher

Tim Hallam wrote:

okay Richard I may be wrong but I can't help thinking the original statement on the King Cobra sanctuary was a misunderstanding of what the label says hence the removal from the website
maybe the moderators would like to invite representitives from HDR and hexarmor to clarify this in a post

the label on your pair of gloves does say "with" superfabric
and even if it was Pakistani made Superfabric as a patent it should still be up to the same specification as any other manufactured superfabric. thats the whole point of a patented idea a uniform consistancy

cheers Tim

Interesting. I have a pair of the older gloves with the US flag and a newer pair with the "Made in Pakistan" label. The material on the US flag gloves feels considerable smoother and more supple than the material on the newer gloves. I will sit down and stick some needles into both later to see if there is a difference in that respect....

Well, I did what I said in my previous post: I have a pair of original US made gloves and a pair of Pakistani ones. I went into meditation mode, visualised each of the gloves as a memebr of University Admin, and started sticking pins into them.

In a nutshell, I did not notice any obvious difference in the "puncture resistance" of both gloves on the back of the hand. For both, moderate force was enough to push a needle through the material. Enough force to require me to place a pencil rubber behing the head of the needle to push it through (it was a sowing needle, not a syringe needle), but certainly no superhuman effort.

On the other hand, multiple sharp, rapid jabs with the needle did not penetrate the glove (this was with my hand in it, to give the right amount of resistance).

Not a scientific test by any means, but subjectively, no difference in the quality of the material.

Make of this what you wish...

that's interesting Wolfgang so used for defensive and safety precautions these gloves are a valuable piece of kit but cobra chewing should be left to the expert

Any news on yhis subject? I nearly bought a pair of them in Houten...

Miguel

Honestly, Dr. Wuster's findings don't surprise me in the least bit if you think of the gloves as ballistic armour. Penetration-resistant fabric (kevlar) is great for anything up to 9mm, but once you start shooting anything with more velocity and/or mass at a vest, it fails rapidly.

What does surprise me is that nobody's found this out the hard way with the gloves. To be honest, if I'm designing a glove that has a reasonable chance of stopping anything short of Bitis gabonica or Bitis nasicornis, I'm taking a layered approach. First, I'd start with a kevlar inner shell and adding a millimeter or two of padding underneath. Second, I'm adding thin ceramic plates over the top and bottom of the hand (including the bones of the fingers). Third, I'm adding a thin covering a well-oiled leather over the whole assembly with stitching around the plates to ensure they stay in place. Finally, spandex mesh would cover the entire glove.

Alex Larsen wrote:

To be honest, if I'm designing a glove that has a reasonable chance of stopping anything short of Bitis gabonica or Bitis nasicornis, I'm taking a layered approach.

It not the big Bitis you want to be worried about. Cobras and similar bite much, much harder than any viper - stopping those fangs is the really difficult job.

Wolfgang Wüster wrote:

Alex Larsen wrote:

To be honest, if I'm designing a glove that has a reasonable chance of stopping anything short of Bitis gabonica or Bitis nasicornis, I'm taking a layered approach.

It not the big Bitis you want to be worried about. Cobras and similar bite much, much harder than any viper - stopping those fangs is the really difficult job.

Bite force isn't something I really thought about, I was coming from the direction of solving a purely kinetic problem (which is silly considering the subject matter, in hindsight). Also, I'm given to understand that Elapids are chewers and can/will "walk" their bites until they find a purchase point they like. It's a problem that I will consider. Offhand, do you happen to know the average length and diameter of Naja sp. fangs?