N. Kaouthia Sunset Morphs

Here are 2 pics of Sunset morphs that I sold to my friend Randy at Venomstreet. Enjoy
Here is a Banded Sunset male


Here is the only true Supersun known. She is awesome!!


Randy I'm sure you'll enjoy owning them.

Thats a great snake he got. How does these kaothia morphs work, are they dominant, co-dominant, recessive?

A couple of guys are trying to figure out the gene make up but only one guy knows whats going on "maybe" and he won't tell any info on them. The supersun female is essentially the key to all of the Sunset morphs. These guys believe that the Supersun is made up of three genes coming together. She has dark red ruby eyes and I know in the photos you can't tell but she has this amazing gold cast. Smokin!! Mitch at Diamond Reptiles sold me them and regrets it badly. He knows better than anyone on the make up as he had the original animals that came from Thailand. Your probably thinking, why did you sell them? Well I just want to expand my Aspidelaps collection and work with just Leucistic and Albino Kaouthia. Nothing in my opinion is better looking than a white cobra with blue eyes or the orange/yellow and red eyes of albinos. I have a male Albino that is amazing deep orange and is better looking than most sumset morphs.

I can't wait to actually see them in person. And I hope they retain their colors, but I am not going to worry about it. Hopefully the genes are there to produce some more great looking animals.

Randy

If this supersun female all produces sunset babies the sunset morph should be co-dominant. Since there´s a superform of the morph. So a sunset kaouthia female that is bred to a sunset male that clutch should consist of 50% sunsets 25% normals and 25% supersunsets. If bred the sunset female is bred to a normal male, it should be 50/50 sunsets/normals.

Its kind of sad that the first producer of these sunsets doesnt want to share his "genetic-knowledge" of the morph, especially when he has started to sell them. Buyers should have the right to now what they bought. Especially since they surely has pay some extra money for these morphs.

Is there any pictures of the super sunset available? Would love to see her

I like leucistic cobras too, but this is something special. I've never seen this colour in cobras. If i had three different morphs from one species of cobra I'd try to mix them together like in ball pythons. Maybe the combination is even better.

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Its kind of sad that the first producer of these sunsets doesnt want to share his "genetic-knowledge" of the morph

Well, that means, at least in my opinion, that for some people, the reasons to collect, husband and breed snakes are reduced to just - money.
In my further opinion, this just started "cornsnaking" of cobras will help to reduce private herpetology to a level that's not the one it once was living from.
I' m very sorry seeing these trends taking over in the venomous section more and more - it's just a way to "everybody his lollypop-cobra", and the first line breeders a fat banc account - and reduces majestic creatures like cobras to carnival freaks.
Sorry to see this "morph"-mania grow like a cancer - it is and will never be my thing.
Just my two cents...

Regards
Peter

For me is intersted but I wouldn't make it a profit.

Thats the whole thing Peter, it's not everyones flavor. To each their own and no one has to like the animals execpt for the people buying them.

Micheal I posted her pic on this thread

No matter what anyones opinion is it comes down to what people like and want. I don't breed snakes to make a living but if an opportunity comes along and someone is willing to pay "top dollar" for them then their sold. I keep what I like and I come across beautiful animals like the ones I showed, but they don't compare to my Leucistics and Albino Kaouthia. Randy will be producing some nice and I'm sure new morphs...so good luck Randy and I know I'm waiting on what the babies are going to look like.

Peter Zürcher wrote:

Well, that means, at least in my opinion, that for some people, the reasons to collect, husband and breed snakes are reduced to just - money.
In my further opinion, this just started "cornsnaking" of cobras will help to reduce private herpetology to a level that's not the one it once was living from.
I' m very sorry seeing these trends taking over in the venomous section more and more - it's just a way to "everybody his lollypop-cobra", and the first line breeders a fat banc account - and reduces majestic creatures like cobras to carnival freaks.
Sorry to see this "morph"-mania grow like a cancer - it is and will never be my thing.
Just my two cents...

Regards
Peter

My thoughts exactly on this issue, and I know that there are other fellows who participate on the site- besides Mr. Zurcher and myself- who feel the same way. I'd like to hear the rationale as to what precisely is there to be learned from deliberately inbreeding snakes in order to produce genetically degenerated colour morphs? Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Jason Bruno wrote:

No matter what anyones opinion is it comes down to what people like and want. I don't breed snakes to make a living but if an opportunity comes along and someone is willing to pay "top dollar" for them then their sold. I keep what I like and I come across beautiful animals like the ones I showed, but they don't compare to my Leucistics and Albino...'

I'm sure that many people on the site appreciate your candour on this question, Mr. Bruno. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Peter Zürcher wrote:

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Its kind of sad that the first producer of these sunsets doesnt want to share his "genetic-knowledge" of the morph

Well, that means, at least in my opinion, that for some people, the reasons to collect, husband and breed snakes are reduced to just - money.
In my further opinion, this just started "cornsnaking" of cobras will help to reduce private herpetology to a level that's not the one it once was living from.
I' m very sorry seeing these trends taking over in the venomous section more and more - it's just a way to "everybody his lollypop-cobra", and the first line breeders a fat banc account - and reduces majestic creatures like cobras to carnival freaks.
Sorry to see this "morph"-mania grow like a cancer - it is and will never be my thing.
Just my two cents...

Regards
Peter

Peter, by qouting me in that way you take away the original meaning of what i was writing. I think that if you buy a morph animal you have the right to know i genetic traits since you have paid a fair amount of extra money for it.
The morph discussion is something that i think never will end, some people like the some hate it and calls it cancer but this is something that probably will come to more and more species. Personally its the genetic that intrest me the most but i cant say that i have something against breeders that get them self inte the whole "morph" thing.
And if someone makes some extra money out of their hobby whats wrong with that? Not many people here that keep snakes for the snakes sake is there?

People can say what they like, but I believe that most people, given the chance to own the original two wc animals, that produced the leucistics, blizzards, and sunsets, would have purchased them, and bred them.

As far as inbreeding, these are not people or even dogs. Inbreeding does not necessarily genetically degenerate anything. If you know anything about inbreeding, you will know that it is the best way the keep the traits that both target animals have in them, and enhance those traits. Likewise, it will also keep the bad traits and and enhance them. So you need to make sure what your breeding.

You can inbreed several times and then outcross, and you will not degenerate the genetics. Many people think inbreeding at all is wrong, and that is just not true. I bred American Pit Bull Terriers for 16 years, so I know a little something about inbreeding. And snakes can be inbred much more than dogs.

If I'm not mistaken, one of the above posters, who is against the color morphs, stated a couple months ago, that he purchased some Leucistic Monocled Cobras a while back. But they turned out to be light colored Suphans. So, are you against the color morphs, or not. Or just against them if someone else has them first.

Take Care
Randy

I don't inbreed and don't care for the "corn snake morphing" either. I had an opportunity to purchase such one of a kind animals and honestly giving your opinions on morphs, I believe alot of you would have bought them also. They are spectacular animals and giving that the orginal animals were wild caught from Thailand the breeder breed them together like alot of us would of. He eventually breed these animals together like anyone trying to get a certain trait or to see what could be produced and I don't see the difference in what he did to someone.....let's say trying to breed mostly white N. Siamensis and line/inbreeding breeding them to obtain that goal. Essentially this is what this breeder has done. Nobody really knows what he has done which I think is BS, but you'll have that. I don't understand the whole high dollar thing, but hey I need money like anyone else and It was nice to have such animals plus their going to a good home and friend.

By the way here is another morph, Blizzard.


This male is an '09.

Here are pics of the original parents from Thailand that Mitch at Diamond Reptile Breeders had to start off this "morph" sunset project. I would like to know how many of you wouldn't of bought these "wild caught" animals which are a pair, and not breed them? I know alot of you don't like "corn snake morphs" but look, this pair occurred in nature. So whats wrong?
Female


Male


Not bad for Mother Nature..huh!!

Some of them are very pretty but I won't have any in my collection. I'll take the normal, natural looking animals over morphs anyday. I also won't pay the price people want for their "special" animals.

Hey John,

So you won't pay a high price for a "special" animal, but I hear tell your asking an outrageous amount for your Indian N. naja babies. What's the difference? At least with the "special" morphs, your getting something different for your money. Just a thought.

Randy

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If I'm not mistaken, one of the above posters, who is against the color morphs, stated a couple months ago, that he purchased some Leucistic Monocled Cobras a while back. But they turned out to be light colored Suphans. So, are you against the color morphs, or not. Or just against them if someone else has them first.

You're just misquoting my statements, Randy.
I wrote that most (if not almost all) offered leucistic monocled cobras turn out to be not leucistic, but suphans in most cases. That has nothing to deal with my own purchased specimens - i knew very well from the beginning what i'll get for my money.

To impute jealousy to me as a reason for my point of view is just not realistic.
The question if im first, second, third or whatever in the line to posess any color "morph" doesn't exist, because i'm not going to participate on these things. That's quite simple, isn't it?

I'm not against color morphs at all, why should i? Mother nature keeps different nice color morphs in many species ready for us.
I don't like the increasing trend to propagate and combine every available defect mutuation, creating more and more new forms to serve hungry, never satisfied customers.
The fact, that many of second and third line breeders of color morphs do not have any genetic knowledge is just one of the reasons for complete loss of control (if there was any at all) like in ball pythons and corn snakes.

Peter





Peter

Sorry Peter, I thought you purchased leucistics, as you stated in a post in another thread, quote "If these snakes shown here are leucistics, then i own myself a pair for sure". The snakes shown there in that post are definitely leucistics, so I thought you had purchased leucistics, or what you thought were leucistics, but were in fact light colored Suphans or something. Whatever the case may be.

I don't know for sure what people are trying to pass of as leucistic kaouthia in Europe, but I am not completely sure that any leucistics had made it to Europe.

I also know that many people like to dismiss another mans animals, because he doesn't have any. You see it all the time. When you dismissed Jason's leucistics in a previous thread, it made you sound jealous, as they are quite obviously leucistic. If that was not the case, my apologies.

In your first post in this thread, you speak about "cornsnaking", and "Sorry to see this "morph"-mania grow like a cancer" Then in your last post, you state "I'm not against color morphs at all, why should i? Mother nature keeps different nice color morphs in many species ready for us" and then you say "I don't like the increasing trend to propagate and combine every available defect mutuation". Your all over the board here.

Why do the genes have to be a "Defect Mutation". If Mother Nature provided the genes to make these color morphs, then they are certainly NOT a "Defect Mutation", as the original two specimens could have bred in the wild and produced what Mitch has produced. If you or anyone else had acquired the original animals, you or they would have bred them, and most likely achieved the same results as Mitch. It is easy to say you wouldn't do it, but you can not be sure what you would do if you were the first to own the original adults. I think anyone would be hard pressed not to breed those two together. That is just normal.

There is nothing wrong with breeding two beautiful WC specimens together and then being happy with the offspring. And, the few kaouthia morphs that have been produced so far, are far from "cornsnaking".

If you do not like them, that is ok, but that does not make them "Defect Mutations" or a "lollypop-cobra", unless your stating here and now that your vast knowledge of the genetics of these animals, though you've NEVER owned any of them, is the end-all on the subject of Cobra color morphs.

If you do not like them, you can nothing, or just say "I don't care for them", without trying to run down someone elses years of work producing these animals, that many other people do like.

No color morph of any species is necessarily a "Defect Mutation", as Mother Nature provided the genes. If you breed a pair of normals, and then keep inbreeding the offspring, and come up with a different color morph, many many generations later, then yes, MAYBE the extreme amount of inbreeding may have caused the color morph, and therefore maybe can be called a "Defect Mutation." That's if someone can live long enough to do that.

Randy

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Your all over the board here.

I sure am - as some others too. What's wrong in beeing active in a discussion forum, and what's wrong in beeing critical?

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When you dismissed Jason's leucistics in a previous thread

I still do not believe Jasons specimens to be leucistic (hoping not to get attacked again just for another opinion) - but they're outstanding white snakes (except the head) with what genetic background ever. To proof if they're leucistic or not we would need a hystologic examination to see if there are melanocytes or not.

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Why do the genes have to be a "Defect Mutation".

Just one example: if there are alleles which should cause the melanocytes to produce melanin, as "arranged" by evolution, and these alleles are not able to do so - it's a defect (which will be corrected by "mother nature" if it's only heterozygos).

Many of the known pattern and colour aberrations are spontaneous defect mutuations - and most of'em would show up and disappear in the wilderness for well known reasons.

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And, the few kaouthia morphs that have been produced so far, are far from "cornsnaking".

Just wait a few years.......

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I think anyone would be hard pressed not to breed those two together.

I can follow you here , but this sounds different:

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someone elses years of work producing these animals

The breeding with a pair of wildcaught (as you stated) "sunsets" won't be the main problem, but others won't be satiisfied only with "sunset"-offspring. They will try to mix it with every other kaouthia-"morph", and some very smart breeders will try to introduce these colours into other species as well.
That's the way it goes, people do not have any limits or borders - and the whole story will get out of control.
That was and still is the case in cornsnakes, balls etc., what makes you thinking it will be handled more serious and responsible here?

by the way: I didn't talk about inbreeding here.

Regards
Peter

That's the reason I posted the original parents that Mitch had gotten from a friend,that got them from Thailand, up on this thread. Everybody is talking about "corn morphing" Kaouthia when most of people have never seen Mitch's originals. Here's the breakdown guys,the animals were breed together producing "normal" looking animals that were double het. These were then breed to each and back to parents to produce all the crazy Sunsets. Mitch aquired a Leucistic, wild caught from Thailand, and then breed the Leucistic to the original sunset to produce animals that again were double het for Sunset and Leucistic. When the DH from this pair where breed together it produced more Sunsets and Blizzards. Yes these animals need to be outbreed to introduce new blood but I know that Mitch raises his animals slower than most people and the animals have not been "stepped on" as most people think. It's the people that buy them that should be outbreeding them because I know what he is doing ..maybe more than anyone else, so these N. Kaouthia are no where near the inbreeding like ball python morphs like some think. So there were 3 original wild caught animals that have started all this, 9 years about when he got originals, grows animals slower, takes at least 3 to 4 years for maturity. Not much inbreeding in my eyes just to isolate genes and see what co dominant and recessive like anyone studying genetics. So I hope this helps but for some reason I feel this might have been a waste of time but atleast some people won't be so Ignorant of what they don't know. Education is the key to a sucessful life.

HaHaHaHa you know Peter...oh man... I could care absolutely less on what peolpe think or care about me or anything that pertains to me. HAHAHAHA when it comes down to it, your right they are beautiful "white" cobras and like I stated....Don't care either. I enjoy working with them..oh ya you wouldn't know since your Knowledge of snakes mislead you in buying Suphans that were sold to you as Leucistics. That's where education can help you. If you would like to know more about Kaouthia here in the States I can give you a helping hand you know "herp friends". See I don't care about genes and genetics, I care about the animals I keep and breed and don't like to get involved into to much with people because no matter what I'm still that 1%er that only cares about me, my animals, my wife and some close friends and thats it! But Peter for some reason I'm glad your here to raise my blood pressure and help my blood flow...thank you Peter. And thanks for the compliment Peter that you stated that their outstanding white snakes.....yes they are.

There is nothing wrong with being active and being critical. But you were a little more rude than critical when Jason said his snakes were leucistic, and you acted that way without any proof of the genetics of his snakes to back up your allegations. Just a few bad photos.

When Jason posted photos of his leucistics, it really surprised me that you acted the way you did about them, as I never saw you talk that way about anyone elses animals. Your posts had always been in a congratulatory manner only.

Of course, your welcome to your opinion about the leucistics, but your in the definite minority when it comes to that subject. 99.9% of people believe them to be leucistic, and do not just dismiss them before any tests are done to prove otherwise.

If something different comes from a breeding, I don't think we need to call it a defect. A pattern or color mutation yes, but not necessarily a defect. Why put such a bad spin on it?

True, when something new shows up, people naturally tend to wonder "what if". That is how many inventions, good and bad have come to light in this world. But I don't think it is necessarily bad, unless doing these breedings starts producing weak, deformed, unhealthy animals.

Randy

Jason Bruno wrote:

'HaHaHaHa you know Peter...oh man... I could care absolutely less on what peolpe think or care about me or anything that pertains to me. HAHAHAHA when it comes down to it...' for some reason I'm glad your here to raise my blood pressure and help my blood flow...'

Clearly, this is an issue that can evoke strong emotion is some individuals. Nonetheless, in my view, it's important for the people who don't care about the destructive effects of inbreeding snakes for fun and profit to be aware that there are snake keepers who do care about the genetic integrity of species. It's my hope that those who do care remain in the majority on this site. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Jon,

Why do you talk so bad about "inbreeding". Animals inbreed in the wild. Mitch got those 2 animals 9 or 10 years ago, and bred them, and bred the offspring to parents. Then one of the originals died and he acquired a leucistic, and bred that to the others. which was an outcross., so they have only been inbred one or two times since because it all started just 9 or 10 years ago, and you must wait 3 years to breed offspring. You obviously have not paid much attention to the details that Jason posted. Look before you leap Jon.

Sincerely
Randy