N. Kaouthia Sunset Morphs

Randy Ciuros wrote:

Jon,

Why do you talk so bad about "inbreeding". Animals inbreed in the wild. Mitch got those 2 animals 9 or 10 years ago, and bred them, and bred the offspring to parents. Then one of the originals died and he acquired a leucistic, and bred that to the others. which was an outcross., so they have only been inbred one or two times since because it all started just 9 or 10 years ago, and you must wait 3 years to breed offspring. You obviously have not paid much attention to the details that Jason posted. Look before you leap Jon.

Sincerely
Randy

I don't believe that I was talking 'bad' about inbreeding, Mr. Ciuros. I was addressing the destructive effects of deliberately inbreeding captive snakes with the express purpose of producing genetic oddities and freaks purely for their monetary value on the pet reptile keeping market. Incidents of genetic abnormalities in the form of colour deviants are known to occur in the wild, but these incidents appear to be rare. This rarity is likely due to the pressures and power of evolutionary biology which will select out genetic abormalities through predation, environment, etc. When a genetic abnormality is found in the wild, there can be some scientific interest in it, especially if the specimen has managed to live for any period of time and grow beyond a neonatal or juvenile size. In my view, there are valid and legitimate ethical questions that should be asked regarding the deliberate inbreeding of animals in captivity with the express purpose of bringing out recessive genes so that an oddity can be produced which then can be sold for an a higher profit than an example more representative of the species. Why all the interest in freaks and abnormalities? Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

First off I would like to say that I don't appreciate how Jon picked at my post to make a more dramatic quote. I was not mad but found humor in what Peter said about my Leucistics and they way he still feels. Raising my blood pressure and flow to me is funny and in no way angry at him or anyone else that thinks the same. My first post, yes I was mad but now, don't even care and find it quite funny. Peter made a mistake on his purchase of "leucistic" and got Suphans. From my experience and breeding of Leucistic Kaouthia is that they have blue eyes which are visible in hatchlings. Maybe that info would have helped him, who knows. Listen let me tell you there is no and I mean no breeder here with fat bank accounts from breeding Kaouthia and when I read that it makes me laugh. I sold a male Leucistic for 200.00. There is no market here to sustain such prices like you think. I have seen prices across the pond that were much more than here. Maybe I need to relocate oversees and become rich from Leucistics..Hahaha

Quote :

Peter made a mistake on his purchase of "leucistic" and got Suphans.

You should read my posts again - slow please.

I've never get fooled with leucistics, because i had the basic informations about what is leucistic and what is not years before i purchased my first (almost) white Naja kaouthia. I've seen the first real leucistic in my life probably long before you did - that was 20 years ago - in Switzerland.

Quote :

Maybe that info would have helped him, who knows.

I'm not sure if any info about genetics coming from you could really help me, as you stated today:"See I don't care about genes and genetics".

It's a pity that we cannot discuss here about extensive "morph" breeding without slipping into a personal level by some people - in my opinion this subject is too important and too interesting to see it ending up in personal fightings.
Raising blood pressure and laughter ain't helpful arguments in discussions......

So please breed whatever you want and sell leucistics for 200 Dollars - but let other people have other opinions - and this must include the right to post it here in a factual way without getting attacked personally.

Regards
Peter

Hi there,

Sorry for my poor english, trying my best as french speaking person.

I am for sure not a scientist. I am for sure NOT interested in any kind of morph in the species I've got, excepted if it's a proven existent one in the wild. I always look to have the most "Pure" lineages in my "collection" of snakes. I avoid any inbreeding with all the species I get, equal what time I do need to find the complement.

My only reaction to all those morph-research, is a pure fright about what the problems could be in the future, may it be a far away future, or a nearer one. We all, for sure, excepted someone could find me a paper about it, can't explain what the problems would be in case of such aberrations as we find it already in some species (eublepharis macularius, Panterophis guttatus, Python (broghammerus) reticulatus, python molurus, etc, etc). Most people are only trying at the moment, and it seems there is no one who takes care about the principle of precaution (I do not know if it's right in english, in french "principe de précaution"). It means that if you're not sure about the result of some experience in biology or ecology, we avoid to get more injuries to the actual level of things...

For sure, I would not like to see some serious problems occur in future about our passion. I only can hope that people who try to do some personal selections in morphs and other lineages are really sure that there will be no harming or no involontary spreading of some "touched" lineages.

For the rest, it's a question of taste and like-it or not...

Cheers.

I never attack anyone on a personal level or any level of matter of fact. I posted up again pictures and then it went into a whirlwind of BS. Hell I even showed pictures of the originals that Mitch had and explained what he has done which a lot of people didn't know. Of course I had is permission and thought I did discuss some "morph" details to clean up any misconceptions about the Kaouthia morphs here. I also said I'm not offended by anything you say and even thanked you for your compliment on my outstanding white cobras. Sorry if that was an attack maybe I don't understand on how to compliment you. Just because I don't care about genes and genetics doesn't mean that I don't know, now that would be ignorant to think so. I have a sense of humor and was having fun and thought I also brought some true facts about the Kaouthia morphs here.

Those original sunsets you posted Jason are really goodlooking snakes. it´s cool that Kaouthia morphs also come from nature at first, i have a friend whom breeds ballpythons and many of the morphs also started with WC oddities imported by breeders. Like BHB´s pinstripe, Enchi pastel, spider, even the piebald came from imported WC´s from the start.

Jason Bruno wrote:

Here are pics of the original parents from Thailand that Mitch at Diamond Reptile Breeders had to start off this "morph" sunset project. I would like to know how many of you wouldn't of bought these "wild caught" animals which are a pair, and not breed them? I know alot of you don't like "corn snake morphs" but look, this pair occurred in nature. So whats wrong?
Female


Male


Not bad for Mother Nature..huh!!

I will buy them straigth away! But I also understand Peter and the others.
BUt if I had that pair I tried to breed them purple and green if possible.

Good luck

Regards

Richard

Jon Davidson wrote:

I don't believe that I was talking 'bad' about inbreeding, Mr. Ciuros. I was addressing the destructive effects of deliberately inbreeding captive snakes with the express purpose of producing genetic oddities and freaks purely for their monetary value on the pet reptile keeping market.......... In my view, there are valid and legitimate ethical questions that should be asked regarding the deliberate inbreeding of animals in captivity with the express purpose of bringing out recessive genes so that an oddity can be produced which then can be sold for an a higher profit than an example more representative of the species. Why all the interest in freaks and abnormalities? Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Why do you immediately go to "freaks" and "monetary value". Why do you not believe that someone can be interested in only seeing what if. Just because someone breeds two animals together and produces different looking animals, does not always mean they only care about money, unless they are asking $25,000US like people did for the Ball Pythons and other Python morphs. Those people obviously only care about money. No one breeding Cobras has asked a rediculous price like that. Though some Cobra breeders do ask unreasonably high prices.

Have any of you people on this forum ever heard the saying... If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all? That is how it used to be on this forum, and I have to say, those were nicer days. When I see someone post about something I do not care about, I usually do not post anything. What good does it do to post if your only going to run down someone's animals and accuse people you've never met of only caring about money.

Randy

Randy Ciuros wrote:

Why do you immediately go to "freaks" and "monetary value". Why do you not believe that someone can be interested in only seeing what if. Just because someone breeds two animals together and produces different looking animals, does not always mean they only care about money, unless they are asking $25,000US like people did for the Ball Pythons and other Python morphs. Those people obviously only care about money. No one breeding Cobras has asked a rediculous price like that. Though some Cobra breeders do ask unreasonably high prices.

Have any of you people on this forum ever heard the saying... If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all? That is how it used to be on this forum, and I have to say, those were nicer days. When I see someone post about something I do not care about, I usually do not post anything. What good does it do to post if your only going to run down someone's animals and accuse people you've never met of only caring about money.

Randy

That seems to me and other like minded fellows to be the heart of the issue. We've all witnessed the results from the folks who just wanted to see the 'what if' possibilities of inbreeding Corn Snakes, King Snakes, Ball Pythons and other reptile species. The motivation is clearly profit driven as these 'new' and 'different' captive inbred artificial animals always cost more than an example that is more representative of the species as it occurs in the wild. I'm a little confused by your rebuttal. You state that no cobra breeders have asked for a ridiculously high price for a specimen, yet in your very next breath you say that some cobra breeders do ask for unreasonably high prices. You position that no one should say anything at all if they don't have something good to say seems to me to be not sensible on an open forum that is free of aliases and whose membership includes many well known, experienced, commited keepers and professional Herpetologists who may not agree with your point of view on this particular and contentious issue. Please note, Mr. Ciuros that I have not 'run down' anyone's animals nor have I accused anyone of anything. I have merely expressed my perspective just as other members here have. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Randy Ciuros wrote:

Have any of you people on this forum ever heard the saying... If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all? ...
Randy

Yep, that would be a good idea if all would subscribe to this, Randy.
But sadly You prove Yourself that it will be just a wish

I cannot understand, why You guys always explode like this when someone states that morph breeding is mostly money driven. Earning money is nothing bad. And accepting (not necessarily sharing) other points of view is also nothing bad ...

Guenter

STop----Stop---Stop---

Well guys, i know most of you guys in person or about long time chatting / EMailing...
i also know that there is always different opinions on certain topics....

I actually do not know, why you folks always get on each other troths about color morphs... please let have everyone his own way to think about certain things... peoples like peter came from a totally different angle of the hobby as Jason maybe...

randy is right about him saying we (the venomland community) have seen better Times here in terms of our communication skills... after all, i think, we do all focus and live the same love for our animals, that is more than some disagreements about their colorations or what so ever... if richard would love to breed neonlight, shiny green cobras with red eyes, let him, if peter dont like it, let him too,, if randy byes them, let him work with them... sweet jesus, we have much more in common, everyone of us, as there are things who might separates us...

get back to the past, discuss things neutral, open minded and with respect for each other, even if we dont share everyones passion on certain topics...

cheers
Mario

Personally, I love to see new colors and patterns. As I stated on another thread (I recall), I appreciate the time, effort etc. that any given breeder puts into his or her snakes (or other animals) to produce wild types or 'designer morphs'.

I think calling morphs 'defective', 'freak', 'degenerate' or 'artificial' does put a negative spin on things, although I have to admit that Peter explained his use of 'defective' well.
As someone already mentioned, most morphs have originated from the wild. Whether or not their life expectancy in the wild is poor due to these special colors or patterns that may stand out more so than in 'normals' is not a reason to not cultivate them in captivity and see what can be produced. In my eyes, many morphs are living works of art, a testament to the breeder's dedication. Or luck, in the case of first examples of given morph popping out of a litter or clutch .
Be the new morphs the result of being found in the wild or produced with or without the intent to do so is exciting in my opinion. Further combinations can be truly outstanding.

If a morph is healthy, why not further breed it? If it is not, problems occurring with certain color or pattern, is it really even possible to perpetuate such morph?
For one, I do not like when certain traits are introduced from one species to another, even if the outcome would be incredible.

Also, I'm not a big fan of seeing prices go down too much. I don't understand the complaint of someone asking a high price for something new or rare. Why should it be cheap? That only tells me that folks don't appreciate the breeder's work. I assume most breeders put a heftier price tag for new and rare morphs for the reason that they are new and rare, but also because it has been a time-consuming project to undertake and succeed in. Space, rent, food, electricity...
The prices seem to go down for many species eventually in this hobby.

And whoever got into venomous snakes with the intent of breeding them to get rich? Ok, some have. From what I know, most of the time such people have realized that they need to put a lot of effort and money into it to even get their snakes to breeding size/age or invest more money for adults. Some have given up on the whole thing well before the first set of babies.
I know there are breeders who make a living breeding reptiles, and I say good for them. I look up to them, most of them have worked hard to be where they are now. And whose to say the snakes are somehow of lesser value to them if they make a profit? Doesn't make sense.
Whether you grow into a large-scale breeder from a hobbyist and do make a profit, or invest more in certain species or morphs right off the bat in turn to try and breed them for profit, what's wrong with that? Even if such people wouldn't have a 'passion' or 'love' for the species they work with, as I think one writing in this thread insinuated, I don't see how that means the snakes would be worse off. If anything, to get a good reputation and sell quality animals over a long period of time, it means that your breeders must be in top-notch condition and your babies well started - among other things. Right?
Then again, has anyone really stuck with breeding snakes or creating morphs successfully long-term without caring about his or her animals the least bit?
I think financial gain is a great motivator to provide the very best of care for your reptiles.
As is the passion, of course.

On a more personal note, my greatest motivator with my T. puniceus 'experiments' and combinations is curiosity and my love for the species. I want to see what may still lie hidden in the various combinations. It's an exploration into the unknown for me. Should even more new colors surface in the future, I as sure as hell won't be selling any of them for the nickle and dime the wild types can be found these days.

People who want to stick with the wild types - or should I say with colors and patterns that are most commonly encountered in the wild - are welcomed to do so. Nothing wrong with that. But why frown upon others' curiosity to see what can be produced from different combinations? Or their effort to 'make money'?
All of us who have ever sold a single snake or babies have made money, but for the most of us it's damn near impossible to make a profit out of it, all things considered.

In closing, awesome cobras, intense colors. To be quite honest, in the case of N. kaouthia, I find these morphs and their colors more beautiful than the most common wild type.

Jon,

Don't be confused. Ridicuously high prices are like the $25,000US asked for Ball Pythons. Unreasonably high prices are prices like $750 - $2500US for previously common species that have not been readily available until lately, and fairly rare species that many have acquired and are now breeding regularly. Big difference between the two.


Thank you Mario,

All I am saying is, if someone does not agree with something someone else likes, just say "I don't really care for them", and let that be the end of it, or say nothing at all. There is no need to accuse people of only caring about money, and calling their animals defects and lollypops. This never use to happen here. That is why I do not go to most other forums. I really hate that this has started here.

As Mario stated "get back to the past, discuss things neutral, open minded and with respect for each other, even if we dont share everyones passion on certain topics..."

RESPECT being the key word.

Randy

Randy Ciuros wrote:

All I am saying is, if someone does not agree with something someone else likes, just say "I don't really care for them", and let that be the end of it, or say nothing at all.

Did I miss something? Do You make the rules here?
Discussion does not mean that one person can state something and then shout "Stop" when another argues against it.

Randy Ciuros wrote:

As Mario stated "get back to the past, discuss things neutral, open minded and with respect for each other, even if we dont share everyones passion on certain topics..."

RESPECT being the key word.

Randy

Well spoken, please be the first to show us this style!

Besides that, I won't participate in Randy-Jason-Threads from now on. Simply not worth the effort.

Wow Guenter

Where did that come from? I was simply making a suggestion pertaining to what Mario had just said, and I had said earlier, about getting back to the way things were before people started talking down about peoples animals. I'm not trying to make rules. Anyone can see that. And, I had assumed things were already finished, and then you make this post, like Jason and I do not have the right to defend ourselves when someone makes rediculous accusations.

Randy Ciuros wrote:

RESPECT being the key word.

I agree; as Mr. Lutz has indicated. I could respond further to the additional perspectives and remarks in this Thread; However instead I will suggest an essay written in 1996 by Richard Ross(The Reproductive Husbandry of Pythons and Boas)who addresses this issue far more eloquently that I can. Please refer to: 'Emerging Ethics and Attitudes in Herpetoculture'; an editorial, in Herpetological Natural History, Vol. 4, # 1. June 1996. I'm certain that PDF should still be available on the 'net'. It's important to remember that one has an obligation when offering rebuttal to another individual's point of view to attack the person's perspective without ever attacking that person personally. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

I get a kick out of "people" thinking I'm or other Kaouthia breeders do it for money...grow up man. I work with and breed what I like and DON"T do it for money. You guys think it is all money driven well let me tell you something know it alls, Mitch has a direction in his breedings and trust me he is not rich or I on Kaouthia and just find that absurd. I sell my animals at prices that make people mad, I just want a little return to fund my hobby not live off of it. I make people mad on here with photos and I make people mad here because they feel my prices are to low, so if your not in tune with what the market is here or dont live here then how and the hell do you know how fat our bank accounts are? Unbelievable. I see animals for sale oversees and laugh at them because "us" here get blasted for making money when everybody sell their animals. If your against money making off of animals then give them away. If you don't want to post on my or Randys thread then dont, I'd rather have someone respond that has hands on experience and owns animals that have breed them or studied them and not pictures of them. Pictures and the real thing is totally different and atleast you cant get bit I guess but whatever. I don't want you to like me, I didn't come on here to be friends, just to share info and pics on breeding snakes.

I thought I also cleaned up any misinformation that you put in your heads about the origin of the parents that started this war. Mitch told me not to waste my time with some of you, but I know there are breeders and collectors that wanted to know and simply didn't.These "sunset" morphs occurred in the wild and I showed pics of the originals and explained everything that was done to get where we are at now. Yes these animals need to be outbreed to insure healthy animals and to isolate the genes so your not getting a defected animal. The hatchlings being offered need to ne outbreed, but since Kaouthia dont sell here very good nobody wants to take the time and I have projects going on THAT and I mean That have nothing to do with inbreeding , but I'll keep that reserved for now. I"ll start another post with pics to get stirred up again later. HAHAha. I don't want some of you to like me and all I care about is the animals. Anyone can listen and read books but hands on experience counts. And I get tired of people thinking that I'm or the few people here in the states have fat bank accounts breeding Kaouthia...there is no market here....damn. I have a few breeders from across the pond that want them and what I'm selling them for to what some of you will be paying, I need to move there and blow the market up with Kaouthia morphs so I can sit in Amsterdam in coffee shops watchin the ladies. The prices oversees arent any better, trust me, well I guess I really don't care about what most of you think but we are not getting rich so grow up! And for the people that say" I want natural occuring morphs" well come to my collection and I bet you would go home with your Lolly-pop cobra!!!!!

Hold down your blood pressure, Mr. Bruno - and remember what Mr. Ciuros stated:
"Respect is the key word"
It's about time to start that..........

I'm sorry where you sitting at my computer with me! I'm laughing at this not mad. Respect is earned not giving out especially by me sir. I didn't know you were a human behavior specialist. Like I've stated before sir I am and always will be a 1%er and thats like religion. And I not where I'm at by being disrespectful and a push over so If you give respect than you will get it....sometimes.

Well a lot of discussion on that account. I just want to say:"Good work, Jason Bruno". There are allways going to be pro and contras. I think given the fact you probably own a lot of snakes
and you breed them yourself you have quite good idea what you're doing. I've never seen sunset and blizzard morph of kaouthia before and they are stunning.

Most of the people like normal looking snakes, but the chance of having a unique snake nobody would miss. I know probably more than 1000 different morphs from different familys, genus, etc. Those two you have I've seen for the first time. There are more than 400 mutations and designer morphes known only for ball pythons.

I wanted to buy kaouthia albino but i bought Acanthophis Hawkei instead. But if sunset was available in Europe for a good price I wouldn't think twice. Mutations are definetly more interesting than normal snakes, but there are exceptions.

Thank you for your kind words Bostjan, I appriciate it. Thank you again. I know alot of these "morphs" people don't like but what I can't understand is when people say, I want a natural occuring morph, what is a natural occuring morph? One I would think that mother nature produced like the "sunset" ones...they were wild caught. Mother nature produced those and many others. When Karl showed pictures of his beautiful Kaouthia he absolutely got no negative feedback, those were wild caught like the ones here. He breed them and has awesome little Koauthia that he plans on breeding to isolate the genes or to see what can be produced, what's wrong with what I'm doing. Is it because I'm an American and I know peoples views on us..trust me, or what? Maybe his weren't as brightly colored compared to mine, but in my opinion I like what he has compared to what I have and I don't have "junk" animals. I like rare and beautiful animals and getting the chance to work with and breed I think most of you would have done the same. So every time I post a picture I know that it could go nuts. What's funny is that I posted pictures of "leucistic" or white N. Sputatrix '09 CBB hatchlings and no one said anything negative unlike the Kaouthia. All the negative responses to my animals that I have shared I know those people, if giving the chance, would own them also. Congrats again Randy, smokin animals you bought. And no matter how these people think of me I would still sell them animals because I know that they care about the animals and thats important to me. I love these animals so much there is no way in this life time I would ever put the health of the animals in danger or to make them geneticlly inferior for any amount of money or personal pleasure. I care to much for wildlife......humans well there needs to be a culling. Thanks again for the kind replies.

To get back to Naja, here are some quick photos of 2 of my animals.

Male Albino


The Leucistic "white" female Kaouthia. Mother to the hatchlings this year.

They are really nice.

There was talk of genetic degradation. It is probably possible that can happen but only in case of line breeding.

I happend to Ralph Davies (RDR) with Albino Ball Pythons. After long term line breeding they degenerated in the sense that they had shorter lower jaw than normal ones. Some of them were also blind. They survived but he chose not to line breed them again.

In Caramel Albino Ball Pythons is a genetic defect that results in kik or kinks on the snake's spine. So called 'Kinked Caramels'. This is carried presumably by all lines of Caramels except some hidden ones by the words of Ralph Davies.

I dont think you plan to line breed this species, I just hope sunset will be available in Europe soon. But if discussing designer snakes leuc-sun or leuc-super sun would look amazing.

Quote :

But if discussing designer snakes leuc-sun or leuc-super sun would look amazing.

What would be that amazing in a combination "leucistic" X "sunset" or what sense does it make to combine a snake, which is pure white due to the lack of pigment cells, with a luminescent colored one like "sunset"?