"Hypo" Javan project

I thought I'd start a separate thread for this one. I'll - hopefully get to - update this one in the future.
I know I posted some of the pics on another thread, but in case it's not violating any rules I'll post some again as I think it's better to have all the relevant info under the same thread.

Some of you may already know about this, so it may be old news to you.
Perhaps there are additional people interested in this little project, who knows.

Andreas Gumprect bred WC Javans, and from his litter my 1.2 babies (siblings) were acquired in 2003. A huge thanks to my buddy Harri Tourunen who took care of that deal.
In 2005 I got my first litter, and among that was an almost white female, which I've referred to as a "Hypo". Is that a correct term or not, I must admit that I'm not sure. I've produced nearly 40 babies from the same adult pair, and although last year saw the birth of another obviously lighter female, none have compared to the original "Hypo" in appearance.

Here she is pictured with her 'normal' mother.


And this is her 'normal' father, with which she copulated in November, 2007.


Last Sunday, June 29th, the "Hypo" had given birth. It had been a nervous waiting, and finally there were babies.
I was very excited, but unfortunately I had some bad luck fall upon me... I did spot two very different males in the terrarium, but both were dead. They obviously had moved in the terrarium, but both were in the bottom, so I assumed that they might have been run over by their mom. Not only were they clearly different from normal babies, but they looked different from each other as well!

Eventually I picked up 6.4 live babies, all looking normal. They may well have been the most aggressive litter of puniceus I've seen. Tails vibrating and they continually struck at me and, well, at any movement. Some were striking so hard that they literally jumped forward and even tipped themselves over

Here are the two "Hypo" males.
My limited photographic skills don't do them justice, you could really tell them apart from normal males a mile away.






Here is a normal male from the same litter.


And a normal female from the same litter as well.


I will keep working with this line in the hopes of producing a live "Hypo" male in the future.
Again, any thoughts and comments are welcome.

Hello Christian,

very nice informations! thanks, i am looking forward to see more about it and i am very sorry for the lost!


cheers
Mario

Man, I hope that you are doing okay! I know how much you love your snakes and how much you stress over them, so I know how disappointed you are. You'll just have to keep your head up and keep trying. I think that these things just happen sometimes and there's nothing you could do different. Keep up the good work!

I think that you're definitely onto something weird there. I'm not very familiar with the species, so I can't say for certain, but they look different to me without a doubt.

Thank you for the nice words Mario, I really appreciate that.
Hopefully I'd have some better news in the future.

To be honest, Derek, I've really been rather disappointed and depressed; as an insult to injury I also lost the black female squamigera two days ago.
Your words of encouragment couldn't have come at a more proper time. So thank you very much friend.

Hi Christian,
as my knowledge in colormorphs is really thin, I would like to ask how you define "Hypo"?
Do you mean a pale color or do you mean missing black?

Regards Jörg

Hello Jörg.

Well, I have to be honest with you; I'm not very good on the various color morphs either.
In this case I meant to refer to a situation where all the dark pigments are extremely diminished (as in hypomelanistic, in case I've understood the term correctly).
Looking at the female in question, I can't help but think if amelanistic would indeed be a more appropriate term. I really can't find any dark tones on her whatsoever.

Since at this point I'm not quite sure which would be more correct term to refer to her, I'm stuck with "Hypo". But that's also the reason why I use the term in quotes.

So Mario,
if I understood right, your both Java females could look the same as adult ones as Christians "Hypo".
What color do they have now?

OH NO!!! What happened with the squam female?!! Man, that is horrible to hear. I'm sorry for your loss and I hope that everything is okay with you. I would be bummed out too.

Back to the topic with the puniceus....David and I were told something about the reflection in the eyes that could tell you whether it was amelanistic or hypo. You shine a light in their eyes and if the shine back is red, they are _____. But if the light shines back silver, they are ____. Sorry, I don't remember it all. Also, if the shed skin is completely devoid of any pattern and is completely white, that is a good indicator that they are hypo. We had to talk to ball python and boa breeders to get the information on the morphs because we are both morph idiots, too.

Not sure, Derek. I believe there was a bit of an obstruction, which was relieved by constant soaking, spraying and giving her paraffin oil. She was alert etc and after passing feces even ate, but several days later regurgitated and died.
She was perhaps the tiniest in her litter, and wasn't eating and growing as fast as the others.

Well, back to the original topic. I have some updates on that.
The original "Hypo" female certainly doesn't have a red eyeshine, I'd say silver is closer to the truth. Also, she just shed a few days ago, and the shed was white, no traces of pattern to be found.
Wonder if I could start using the term "Hypo" without the quotes

Indeed, the two odd males were dead, but as the siblings have shed and grown, one male has stood out from the crowd. It appears very pale, especially the background color, compared to normal males.
This is the best shot of him so far, but I think the difference can be seen, although perhaps not as well as up close and in person.

Normal male on the left.


Recently I acquired this gorgeous T. puniceus. She is a WC individual said to be collected from Java.
I would be really happy if she'd settle to her new home, and perhaps participate in this little Javan project I have going on



Edit:
I'm not sure if I'm seeing things, but it seems as if the normal babies from the "Hypo" female would have sharper and a bit brighter colors compared to my previous litters of Javans

A little update here as well...

Most of September my male (pictured in the first post) spent draped around the dark female, but I never observed copulation. However, they were together since July and prior to this spent time at the opposite ends of the terrarium, so I'm hopeful that might have 'done it'.

At the end of September they no longer 'cuddled', and the male had returned to the opposite end of the terrarium. I decided to take him out and placed him with the original hypo female.
Not many days passed before I saw that they were hooked up and copulating.

Now it's the waiting game again. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, will result in 2009...

Yet another update...

The 6.4 babies from the hypo female have now all shed twice. There are some keepers for sure. It will be interesting to see how the females turn out, as they started pretty normal-looking.

And, again, by normal I mean the type of babies I've mostly seen in my litters, forums etc.
Any thoughts and comments on the colors etc. are most welcome.

Here are the babies. The first male is my absolute favorite, it's the same one pictured in the above post together with the more normal-looking male.

0801



0802


0803


0804


0805


0806


0807


0808


0809


0810

Wow,

if the pictures don´t lie my vote goes for 0806.
The best of that litter IMHO

Cheers mate!

Well, the pictures don't lie. Not much anyways... I like 0806 as well, it's a close second to 0801. I also like 0805 because of the rather symmetrical pattern.

To liven up things, here are two new shots of the dark female after she shed a couple of days ago. Didn't change much at all, which isn't a bad thing
Up close it looks like it's a bit rusty; some orange dots and flecks here and there. Even though it's really dark, the typical (?) pattern is visible.

Unfortunately can't say for sure if she's gravid or not at this point.



Slightly over-exposed, but the orange color is nearly as well visible under bright lighting. The chin and post-ocular stripes very much so.

On March 31st the hypo female gave birth again. There were:

6.10 live ones
0.1 stillborn, severely kinked with underbite (?) and only one eye
0.1 severely kinked which I had to euthanize
0.1 which was killed by another baby (!)

In addition there were three unfertilized masses. Mom is doing great, and so are the babies. They may well be the most aggressive puniceus babies I've ever had.

To my disappointment, there were none like the two very special [dead] males last year, but that aside, these are really cute and will surely develope into gorgeous individuals. 1-2 males stuck out from the terrarium immediately as being considerably more pale than normal. Seeing how the females will turn out will take longer than in males, so more waiting is in store...

I expect most to shed about one week from now, so I'll take some pictures then. Or maybe I'll wait until they shed the second time and the colors improve.

Hi christian,

congratulations...
looks like, you keeping the punica oases alive, and what beauties you´v got..

keep posting the progress with your group - you know, i am a huge puniceus fan.


cheers
M

Very interesting thread I look forward to following this one!

Thanks a lot Mario & Graeme.

First baby shed on April 13th and the last one shed on April 19th.
On April 19th & 20th first 8 babies took their first whole pinkie. Some of the other babies are a bit on the small side, so I may have to start them with bits and pieces

They are all beautiful, with some variation among them. I must say that there are several lookers in there. It's frustrating to have to wait so long to see how the females turn out...
And as far as my camera-skills go, the females are a pain to photograph; it's almost impossible to capture their true color. But I'll keep practicing...

It seems to me that especially some of the female babies are having a green tone to them, which I don't remember noticing last year.

I will try to take pictures sometime soon, so you guys can see some of them and let me know what you think.

On a side note, the dark Javan female does seem nice and round, and she keeps warming herself under the basking light. Perhaps there are babies on the way after all...

Alrighty then! Finally have some new pictures and the time to post them...

First I thought I'd share few shots of the 2008 babies.
This male, "0802", took a turn to a bit brighter colors at last shedding.



Here are two of the females from 2008. Unfortunately I can't remember which one the first is, but the second is "0810". She's dramatically different from the other three females.
See for yourself...






And now the 2009 update.
For me, these are quite difficult to photograph to capture their true colors and splendor - especially when they're this tiny.
I will post pics as they grow and change, but here are few samples.

At a first glance, these two were the most striking representatives of each sex. The male (0901) has the lightest color than any other male. However, there are other gorgeous males which I'm sure will grow to be quite the lookers.
The female pictured here (0907) was the most pale of all females. At the moment she also lacks most of the pattern at the front part of her body. Sweet individual, can't wait to see how she ends up looking.
And now the pictures...





Here's a random female, which is one of those that seem to have a greenish tone to them. Also, note the rather bright tail and the lack of dark rings around the white spots.



Hope you guys enjoyed this little update. I hope to have more for you in the future

EDIT:
I almost forgot, here is the picture of the poor mutant that was born dead;

Some new photos...

I tried to take some group photos to better illustrate the variation on the colors.

Here are three females cbb '09. Unfortunately the lightest one, on the left, is in shed and doesn't appear as stunning as it normally does.


Here are two males, cbb '09.


And here are the two best-looking males from '08, with their dad. This male produced the original hypo, and both litters with the hypo.

Darkest female and that "green/red" male are stunning. Nice to hear that everything goes well with them.
Ari

What a stunning collection of puniceus you have! I especially like the 3 males on the last pic.
Sometimes I regret having sold mine...

awsome babys and parents give me give me

I love how variable these guys are. Are no two puniceus alike, or is the variability more related to the odd stuff going on in your collection, Christian? Did the dark girl ever get pregnant?

Thank you so much guys.

I would have to agree that the 3 males are among the best I've ever seen. And I'd say this even if they weren't mine...

Peter, eventually I will get rid of some. If I get a good price or a trade

That's a good question Derek.
I have only had one litter of Sumatrans, and as far as I can remember, there was no great variation on their color. I managed to sell most of them and only held back the semi-striped female, so obviously there was nothing significant going on prior to selling. I have seen some photos of the ones I sold, but haven't noticed any special variation.

There may be some differences in tones; I had two adult Sumatrans from the same parents (as I recall it), born one year apart. As they matured, both were orange/grey, but the other one was considerably darker than the other.

Patterns vary, however. Some might have more zig-zag type pattern while others may have saddles or even partial striping. Others are somewhere in between, and so far I have not seen a completely symmetric pattern.

I've had more Javan litters, and in the beginning I managed to sell most of them, and didn't notice much difference in the babies. Haven't really followed how they have turned out as adults, but what I have seen are mostly the types I used to see from the 'normal' or 'typical' parents. If you can call them such...
There have been some variations on the tones of colors, especially on the females. Different shades. As the females mature, they take on various tones of yellow, and the pattern is lighter or darker - and the amount and type of pattern varies a bit as well. Some are warmer tones, some brighter, but the yellow itself isn't bright like a lemon yellow schlegelii, for example.
I dunno if I'm making any sense...

I would say that other than the hypo breedings, the males have been pretty similar to each other as far as color goes.

But the fact is that both litters produced by the hypo female have had the greatest and the most dramatic variation in color - some never-before-seen as well, at least for me.
Some differences are obvious at birth, some becoming obvious as the babies grow and age.

As I've stated before, the males tend to look better at birth, but they get better and brighter with age too. Females are more dull at birth, but different shades can be detected - as they get bigger they will reveal their true color, so to speak.
If you look at the 2008 baby pictures, the females don't seem to be drastically different from each other. One year later 0810 looks grey while the rest are yellow. By the way, I've never before seen a female puniceus of that color.

Funny you should ask about the dark girl...
I had started to have doubts about her being gravid, even though she had fasted and was nicely round. And occasionally was found basking.
Well, yesterday (July 22nd) when I came home, I checked my snakes and noticed a baby male leaning on the glass of her terrarium. So, quite nicely timed question there, mate

Since I introduced that dark girl on this thread, and she was bred by the male which fathered the hypo, I would like to share the baby pics in this thread as well. I hope there are no objections...

And she did well too; she didn't even look like she had given birth. And considering the size of her litter, I'm surprised that she never appeared considerably pregnant...

How many?
15.12 + 3 unfertile masses. That's 27 and I'm drownin' in these buggers...

Can you see me?


Can you see me now?


The last one to take off.


Moving.


Temporary holding cell.


The best place to hang out.


1.2


At a quick glance I noticed two males that had obvious pink/red tones.


0.1


The females appeared to have cool black masks. Would be nice if some retained that feature.


All in all, I know I'm going to be stuck with the majority of these, but I do love 'em.
It will be very interesting to see how these guys turn out, color-wise. I hope I don't get bankrupt feeding them before I get to see what they'll turn into...

Awesome! Kids look spectacular and the litter size is a nice surprise, hopefully some will get their mothers colours as i fell in love with her since the first glance
And i´d gladly help you get rid off some kids (no surprise there)! Imho puniceus are very underrated (very nice looking, easy to keep and space efficient comparing to some big vipers, elapids aso.), even the typical colours look awesome and are a must have for me atleast. And the "hypo" kid i got from you haven´t satisfied that hunger for more as the appetite only grows when reading topics like this
But it will be very interesting to see what colours they get when they grow up, please keep us posted.